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[Music]

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hello

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and welcome to the show i'm martin

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willis your host and we have a great

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guest for you this evening we have uh

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timothy brigham

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and he is a

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he is a former professor he has his

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phd in psychology from the university of

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georgia

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and uh he's actually been involved in

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the scu

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which is the scientific coalition for

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uap studies

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and uh i've talked to a number of people

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there's some great people

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in that involved in that and uh

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so it's going to be very interesting his

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take on um

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the phenomenon and what uh it actually

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leaves

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in the wake after people have had you

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know these encounters

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so i'm excited to talk to him about that

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and

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well you're well along a weighted

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uh movie by james fox the phenomenon has

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been released today

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and uh as you will see if you watch it

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it does live

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up to the standards of james fox great

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work

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and if you are actually newish to the

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ufo field

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this is one flick you're going to not

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want to miss and i would suggest to at

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this time

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to order it on if you're going to buy it

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because of the extras

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if you're going to buy it and you don't

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care that's fine you can buy it at

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amazon

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prime vimo or vudu

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but if you want the extras right now

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um you want to go to either apple tv

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or um fimo because those are the two

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that are definitely given the extras

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something got clogged up somewhere and

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some of the extras aren't getting

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out to people that bought it on amazon

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anyway i want to thank everyone who

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listens to the show

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and i also want to thank everyone behind

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the scenes we have a

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active facebook page at facebook.com

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podcast ufo so check it out over there

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we're actually simulcast

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over there and this is the first night

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where samuel cast

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over on twitch as well i'm not even sure

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i wasn't able to pick out a category

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there so i don't even

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i'm not even sure if anyone will even

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see it there but it's going to be over

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there anyway

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and i do want to thank all the people

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that support the show i could not

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do this without your help and anyone can

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support the show

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for two dollars or more a month you can

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find that

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uh that patreon link over at podcast

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ufo and uh at podcast ufo while you're

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there check out the latest

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uh blog we have blogs every week by our

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great author

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uh charles lear and this one is titled

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edward

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j rupault and the ufo myth it kind of

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delves into

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rupaul's changing position on the ufo

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topic

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it's uh it's extremely interesting uh

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very interesting uh gentlemen um

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involved in blue book

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and uh so charles is also as i've

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mentioned a number of times he's doing

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an audio blog each week you'll find that

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in the podcast feed wherever you listen

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to the podcast

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or it's also over on youtube so we are

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taking calls

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as usual the last half hour of the show

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um and

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if you have any questions and and you're

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in chat

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please do put them in caps so i

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uh catch them it's always good to stay

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on the topic we're on

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and before i forget i just wanted to let

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everyone know next week we have

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uh jan aldrich long time ufo researcher

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on and the following week we have james

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fox going to be talking about his new

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movie

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so uh without any further

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await we will welcome our guest welcome

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to the show

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tim hi martin thanks for having me on

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today

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yes thanks for thanks for being on i

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listen to your show uh your

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your uh i want to say your presentation

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on

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it was fascinating so i'm really glad

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you

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well thanks i appreciate it um i did

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that was a great experience doing the

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ufo congress talk i try not to do those

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kinds of things too routinely i don't

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make a full-time living

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at ufos or anything like that but i do

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occasionally like to

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you know step out and take a look at

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what's going on specifically uh from my

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area of interest being the human

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component of

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the psychology of what of what we call

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anomalous experiences typically involved

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so

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um you know i have a long history of

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being involved in ufos even before i got

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into psychology and got my

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my doctorate degree but um you know

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that's yeah well let's talk about

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um so what what what what made you um

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gain a fascination with the topic i was

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actually oddly enough in the

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i guess the right place at the right

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time i lived in uh

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outside gulf breeze in pensacola beach

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across the bay from ed walters

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in the 80s when he started doing his uh

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his ufo polaroid

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photos that became you know a major ufo

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wave in the united states so i grew up

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keeping an eye on that in the late 80s

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early 90s

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and eventually kind of as a youngster

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even

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got involved with the local mufon

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chapter and

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and uh from there that that really kind

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of fueled my interest in human

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psychology

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you know and went on to achieve a

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graduate degree and

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have still kind of you know maintained

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an eye on the topic

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so and and did you ever actually have a

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sighting while you were there

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yourself i did once i had a i i saw what

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became known as the gulf breeze red

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light

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it was an object red and obviously that

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would

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flash on for a few seconds uh sometimes

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longer i saw it for about three seconds

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over the bay actually over the gulf of

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mexico it appeared to come on

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to me i could not distinguish it with

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just that brevity from whether it was

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some kind of flare or something like

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that

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it did you know in the direction of a

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military installation but

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it was definitely interesting you know

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to see what was described generally if

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it had been

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you know a more extended sighting as

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what typically people described down

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there

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so uh it does seem to be very different

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from what ed described which is a

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problem i always had with

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with the case in general the the red

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light that the

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other witnesses in the area described

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and the uh the object that ed described

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and allegedly photographed don't seem to

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have a lot of similarities in my opinion

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but

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there was some controversy there i'm

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sure you've probably heard about that

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um one of them uh now maybe i'm i'm

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getting this wrong let me know if you

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know this story

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that someone purchased his house and

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above the garage and the insulation they

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found

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um the model of a ufo that was actually

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pictured

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right a couple of years after the

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original incident i believe

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a reporter went to the house which was

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newly purchased that ed

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had the sightings in and conveniently i

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think directed the new occupants to go

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upstairs and look in the attic and they

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did find

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um a model which was purported to be of

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the uh

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you know the same thing i'd photograph

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the the dating and actually if i

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remember this correctly i

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i'm not sure that i do but there were

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there was the model was made of

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materials that actually had date stamps

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on them

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that occurred after the original

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photographs occurred so

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you know there's no way that model

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itself could have been used in but it is

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a

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previously

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been involved in psychological

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operations you know to have this object

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or this this red light which is which is

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frequently in the skies following

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ed's photographs being released to the

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public i find

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possibly more than coincidental you know

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but

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um well i never heard that part exactly

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about the um the dates not lining up

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right now all right how about that wow

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yeah that's

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that's really baffling that whole whole

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thing and and

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do you know um how many years that

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lasted totally

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around the i know i think

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i want to say 87 started the the

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original ed photographs i know for at

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least five years when i was

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you know in the closer to 1990 there was

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still an active group of people that

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literally almost every night were were

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searching for the for the object in the

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sky

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another into the early 90s there were

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people actively

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still on the hunt and gulf breeze you

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know so

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and did that what did what are the

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common thing

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um idea the skeptics had on what they

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were seeing like planes offshore or

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something

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typically the explanation for uh ed's

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photographs that the

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the original photographs were hoax

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that's a common skeptical

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explanation uh bruce mcabee as you

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probably know has done some analyses of

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of ed's photos and of the red light um

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the images and the and such of the red

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light and uh he seems to

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feel that ed did not fake the

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photographs there's been contrarian

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views to that um

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you know the the red light object with

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my point being there was that that does

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seem to be something people definitely

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saw it was objectively there

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the explanation for what it was and

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whether it actually matches what ed

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saw is something that's a little more

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problematic i think um

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ed never described anything resembling

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that from what i recall in his

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actual encounters but you know

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there are still people in you know in

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the area today reporting

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ufos so it's definitely for whatever

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reason you want to take it as a hot spot

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you know remains to be a hot spot there

288
00:09:59,269 --> 00:09:56,240
was a

289
00:10:03,750 --> 00:09:59,279
someone that had claimed at one time

290
00:10:04,630 --> 00:10:03,760
that um mcabee was given a big check i

291
00:10:06,870 --> 00:10:04,640
don't know did you

292
00:10:07,990 --> 00:10:06,880
write that one too i did uh and i i

293
00:10:09,829 --> 00:10:08,000
don't i have a great

294
00:10:10,949 --> 00:10:09,839
i think this is a wonderful professional

295
00:10:11,910 --> 00:10:10,959
i don't have any negative thing to say

296
00:10:13,990 --> 00:10:11,920
about him uh he

297
00:10:15,269 --> 00:10:14,000
yeah he did work i know he wrote part of

298
00:10:17,350 --> 00:10:15,279
the forward i know for

299
00:10:18,870 --> 00:10:17,360
his book i don't know what you know mine

300
00:10:20,310 --> 00:10:18,880
i'm assuming there probably would be

301
00:10:22,389 --> 00:10:20,320
compensation involved for doing work for

302
00:10:23,829 --> 00:10:22,399
someone in forms of writing for yeah

303
00:10:25,670 --> 00:10:23,839
i don't think he ever received anything

304
00:10:27,750 --> 00:10:25,680
directly for any of his analyses of the

305
00:10:29,750 --> 00:10:27,760
you know for mufon and for few foes and

306
00:10:31,430 --> 00:10:29,760
so forth i don't think he ever received

307
00:10:33,269 --> 00:10:31,440
any kind of payment for anything like

308
00:10:34,150 --> 00:10:33,279
that so i i don't find that to be a very

309
00:10:36,230 --> 00:10:34,160
convincing

310
00:10:38,150 --> 00:10:36,240
commitment i'm actually against you i

311
00:10:38,790 --> 00:10:38,160
actually asked uh bruce when he was on

312
00:10:41,190 --> 00:10:38,800
the show

313
00:10:43,030 --> 00:10:41,200
about that whole thing and he did he did

314
00:10:43,430 --> 00:10:43,040
kind of explain it in that and that type

315
00:10:45,670 --> 00:10:43,440
of way

316
00:10:47,829 --> 00:10:45,680
you're mentioning um but i mean that is

317
00:10:49,670 --> 00:10:47,839
another one of

318
00:10:51,509 --> 00:10:49,680
the things you hear out there like it

319
00:10:52,630 --> 00:10:51,519
can't be legit legitimate because of

320
00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:52,640
this and that

321
00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:54,640
right yeah and i'm not an optical

322
00:10:57,670 --> 00:10:56,320
physicist by any means of course and i

323
00:11:00,630 --> 00:10:57,680
don't prefer to be but uh

324
00:11:02,870 --> 00:11:00,640
uh bruce's analysis of the of the red

325
00:11:04,389 --> 00:11:02,880
light objects seem to indicate from what

326
00:11:05,430 --> 00:11:04,399
i can grasp from this is they don't seem

327
00:11:06,949 --> 00:11:05,440
to show the same

328
00:11:08,710 --> 00:11:06,959
characteristics that like a railroad

329
00:11:09,670 --> 00:11:08,720
flare or something pyrotechnic like that

330
00:11:12,550 --> 00:11:09,680
would have

331
00:11:14,069 --> 00:11:12,560
um how similar it is to that as opposed

332
00:11:15,829 --> 00:11:14,079
to let's say an led light source or

333
00:11:18,870 --> 00:11:15,839
something else and that's beyond my

334
00:11:20,150 --> 00:11:18,880
area of expertise but my um you know

335
00:11:21,670 --> 00:11:20,160
what i saw appeared to be

336
00:11:23,269 --> 00:11:21,680
something that flamed let's put it that

337
00:11:25,430 --> 00:11:23,279
way and you know you can see in many of

338
00:11:26,949 --> 00:11:25,440
the gulf breeze videos that stuff falls

339
00:11:28,710 --> 00:11:26,959
off the bottom whether it be

340
00:11:30,069 --> 00:11:28,720
larger objects that are being emitted or

341
00:11:31,910 --> 00:11:30,079
whether it be something that's burning

342
00:11:33,990 --> 00:11:31,920
and falling into the ocean or the gulf

343
00:11:35,509 --> 00:11:34,000
below that's hard to tell but there do

344
00:11:39,350 --> 00:11:35,519
seem to be indications of

345
00:11:41,030 --> 00:11:39,360
things like that going on so uh-huh so

346
00:11:42,389 --> 00:11:41,040
yeah you kind of think of flare in a way

347
00:11:44,550 --> 00:11:42,399
when you think of things

348
00:11:46,230 --> 00:11:44,560
coming off the bottom but there are some

349
00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:46,240
really unusual

350
00:11:51,829 --> 00:11:49,760
um like not flare flares that are

351
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:51,839
also dripping something which is really

352
00:11:54,790 --> 00:11:54,160
bizarre and uh there's been a few that

353
00:11:56,310 --> 00:11:54,800
have

354
00:11:57,910 --> 00:11:56,320
uh you know for instance the renal

355
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:57,920
shrimp forest charles hult

356
00:12:02,389 --> 00:12:00,480
was saying it looked like molten lava

357
00:12:05,430 --> 00:12:02,399
was dripping off of this thing right

358
00:12:06,790 --> 00:12:05,440
right and nobody can find any any trace

359
00:12:08,150 --> 00:12:06,800
of it afterwards

360
00:12:09,509 --> 00:12:08,160
and then of course if we do do we know

361
00:12:10,550 --> 00:12:09,519
what we're looking for if it's just

362
00:12:12,550 --> 00:12:10,560
molten

363
00:12:14,310 --> 00:12:12,560
you know slag what are we gonna what

364
00:12:15,910 --> 00:12:14,320
should we expect to find from that

365
00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:15,920
i don't know it's a little beyond my

366
00:12:20,069 --> 00:12:17,920
area of physical sciences but

367
00:12:21,590 --> 00:12:20,079
i don't know what you can get from slag

368
00:12:24,389 --> 00:12:21,600
like that but

369
00:12:25,509 --> 00:12:24,399
yeah uh before we go into like the ufo

370
00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:25,519
um

371
00:12:29,269 --> 00:12:27,920
cases where you know people it's changed

372
00:12:33,110 --> 00:12:29,279
their lives or whatever

373
00:12:34,949 --> 00:12:33,120
um do you also go into other topics of

374
00:12:37,509 --> 00:12:34,959
what people are claiming they're seeing

375
00:12:40,710 --> 00:12:37,519
paranormal etc

376
00:12:43,030 --> 00:12:40,720
um my interest is kind of broadly in in

377
00:12:44,389 --> 00:12:43,040
anomalies in that sense so i i think

378
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:44,399
that if i understood your

379
00:12:48,230 --> 00:12:46,320
question correctly i'm also interested

380
00:12:49,590 --> 00:12:48,240
in people who have reported near-death

381
00:12:52,230 --> 00:12:49,600
experiences people

382
00:12:53,110 --> 00:12:52,240
who have reported a variety of anomalous

383
00:12:55,509 --> 00:12:53,120
stuff

384
00:12:57,430 --> 00:12:55,519
right um more generally my background

385
00:12:58,389 --> 00:12:57,440
was in neuroscience and judgment and

386
00:13:00,470 --> 00:12:58,399
decision making

387
00:13:01,670 --> 00:13:00,480
kind of more formally and graduate

388
00:13:03,509 --> 00:13:01,680
school and so forth but

389
00:13:05,269 --> 00:13:03,519
more broadly i'm interested in jungian

390
00:13:07,590 --> 00:13:05,279
psychology and kind of

391
00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:07,600
how how things like ufos and how

392
00:13:10,949 --> 00:13:08,320
anomalous

393
00:13:12,949 --> 00:13:10,959
experiences are described in terms of a

394
00:13:14,550 --> 00:13:12,959
personal narrative right what what it is

395
00:13:17,190 --> 00:13:14,560
that happened to the person

396
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:17,200
um that's kind of been my my area of

397
00:13:20,230 --> 00:13:17,920
focus

398
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:20,240
right um now you just mentioned color

399
00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:21,200
young or

400
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:24,240
jung as you said um now he

401
00:13:29,430 --> 00:13:27,600
he actually did he do some writing on uh

402
00:13:30,949 --> 00:13:29,440
what they call flying sausage back then

403
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:30,959
right he did right has

404
00:13:36,310 --> 00:13:34,160
probably most most famous work there um

405
00:13:37,750 --> 00:13:36,320
flying saucers a modern myth of things

406
00:13:39,269 --> 00:13:37,760
seen in the sky

407
00:13:41,829 --> 00:13:39,279
which was of course translated from the

408
00:13:43,189 --> 00:13:41,839
original uh but the the term myth there

409
00:13:47,189 --> 00:13:43,199
is not used to

410
00:13:48,629 --> 00:13:47,199
necessarily indicate that ufos don't

411
00:13:51,430 --> 00:13:48,639
have a physical

412
00:13:53,430 --> 00:13:51,440
component um he meant myth in the more

413
00:13:55,670 --> 00:13:53,440
kind of purely psychological sense that

414
00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:55,680
ufos tell us about things about

415
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:56,800
ourselves

416
00:14:00,870 --> 00:13:58,800
right both as a society and as

417
00:14:04,069 --> 00:14:00,880
individuals if we can listen maybe

418
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:04,079
i think um but you know as you mentioned

419
00:14:07,189 --> 00:14:05,279
kind of going back to what i talked

420
00:14:10,230 --> 00:14:07,199
about at ufo congress he did

421
00:14:11,509 --> 00:14:10,240
definitely have changing views on ufos

422
00:14:13,430 --> 00:14:11,519
like all of us who have been

423
00:14:15,030 --> 00:14:13,440
in this for a long time i think which is

424
00:14:17,750 --> 00:14:15,040
healthy um

425
00:14:18,949 --> 00:14:17,760
he did uh discount the the explanations

426
00:14:21,430 --> 00:14:18,959
of donald menzel

427
00:14:23,430 --> 00:14:21,440
for those who familiar with ufo history

428
00:14:25,509 --> 00:14:23,440
kind of predating even philip class with

429
00:14:28,550 --> 00:14:25,519
the explanations of optical

430
00:14:30,550 --> 00:14:28,560
illusions uh radar being you know just

431
00:14:32,230 --> 00:14:30,560
erroneous things like that so he pretty

432
00:14:33,269 --> 00:14:32,240
much discounted though he directly said

433
00:14:35,430 --> 00:14:33,279
he discounted

434
00:14:36,790 --> 00:14:35,440
these kinds of explanations so he did

435
00:14:38,470 --> 00:14:36,800
not see that there was an

436
00:14:40,310 --> 00:14:38,480
extremely simple explanation there but

437
00:14:42,150 --> 00:14:40,320
he also uh

438
00:14:44,150 --> 00:14:42,160
some of you may be familiar with kind of

439
00:14:46,150 --> 00:14:44,160
an an older idea that he

440
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:46,160
he adopted for a while that a ufos could

441
00:14:49,829 --> 00:14:47,920
be some kind of space insects right that

442
00:14:53,189 --> 00:14:49,839
could be some kind of physical

443
00:14:54,470 --> 00:14:53,199
um large beings with metallic exteriors

444
00:14:56,949 --> 00:14:54,480
that float around

445
00:14:57,750 --> 00:14:56,959
in in the upper atmosphere right so he

446
00:15:00,949 --> 00:14:57,760
along with his

447
00:15:02,790 --> 00:15:00,959
interest in esp and um how that might

448
00:15:03,750 --> 00:15:02,800
relate to synchronicity and things like

449
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:03,760
that he was a

450
00:15:08,150 --> 00:15:05,360
he was definitely open to these these

451
00:15:10,629 --> 00:15:08,160
unusual claims and unusual ideas

452
00:15:11,990 --> 00:15:10,639
wow i i was unaware about the upper

453
00:15:14,710 --> 00:15:12,000
atmosphere kind of like venus

454
00:15:15,350 --> 00:15:14,720
might have possibly might have right uh

455
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:15,360
possible

456
00:15:19,030 --> 00:15:18,000
life in the upper atmosphere but um i do

457
00:15:23,189 --> 00:15:19,040
remember

458
00:15:25,269 --> 00:15:23,199
like someone uh that had a theory about

459
00:15:26,230 --> 00:15:25,279
like sort of like jellyfish in the upper

460
00:15:29,430 --> 00:15:26,240
atmosphere

461
00:15:31,749 --> 00:15:29,440
you know beings like that um

462
00:15:33,509 --> 00:15:31,759
anomaly i know even john keel i think

463
00:15:35,269 --> 00:15:33,519
you know kind of promoted that idea for

464
00:15:35,670 --> 00:15:35,279
a while i don't know the original maybe

465
00:15:37,910 --> 00:15:35,680
that's when

466
00:15:39,829 --> 00:15:37,920
i think didn't eventually even um

467
00:15:41,430 --> 00:15:39,839
kenneth arnold eventually adopted that

468
00:15:43,030 --> 00:15:41,440
for a while as an explanation i think

469
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:43,040
for what he may have seen which i always

470
00:15:45,269 --> 00:15:43,839
found

471
00:15:46,870 --> 00:15:45,279
unusual that it could be some kind of

472
00:15:48,069 --> 00:15:46,880
organism that flies around in the

473
00:15:49,910 --> 00:15:48,079
atmosphere

474
00:15:51,189 --> 00:15:49,920
um at least that's that's what i seem to

475
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:51,199
recall

476
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:54,480
yeah yeah but you know uh the structured

477
00:15:58,069 --> 00:15:56,560
object like you know what i saw was a

478
00:16:00,069 --> 00:15:58,079
disc and uh

479
00:16:02,550 --> 00:16:00,079
you know i saw the old-fashioned disc as

480
00:16:04,949 --> 00:16:02,560
they say you know now it's uh

481
00:16:05,749 --> 00:16:04,959
an orb or a triangle a lot of people are

482
00:16:08,470 --> 00:16:05,759
seeing

483
00:16:09,590 --> 00:16:08,480
um most people it seems like it seems

484
00:16:13,189 --> 00:16:09,600
like that

485
00:16:16,470 --> 00:16:13,199
um more people are seeing triangles than

486
00:16:17,509 --> 00:16:16,480
than others objects i i think i'm not

487
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:17,519
sure

488
00:16:20,790 --> 00:16:18,959
it just seems like they're really on the

489
00:16:23,670 --> 00:16:20,800
rise and i think that's

490
00:16:25,509 --> 00:16:23,680
also interesting that the type of craft

491
00:16:28,710 --> 00:16:25,519
seems to have changed over

492
00:16:29,189 --> 00:16:28,720
the years right and that's gets into the

493
00:16:31,590 --> 00:16:29,199
whole

494
00:16:33,350 --> 00:16:31,600
kind of question many of us have about

495
00:16:36,310 --> 00:16:33,360
ufos they do seem over time

496
00:16:37,269 --> 00:16:36,320
to mirror what's reflected in the

497
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:37,279
society

498
00:16:40,710 --> 00:16:39,040
of the time if we talk about airship

499
00:16:43,269 --> 00:16:40,720
sightings we talk about

500
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:43,279
you know uh of course with more modern

501
00:16:46,310 --> 00:16:45,040
sightings it's the the extraterrestrial

502
00:16:48,389 --> 00:16:46,320
or interdimensional

503
00:16:49,749 --> 00:16:48,399
explanation but uh you know if you look

504
00:16:51,509 --> 00:16:49,759
back at airship sightings hey they were

505
00:16:52,470 --> 00:16:51,519
described as objects with propellers on

506
00:16:53,910 --> 00:16:52,480
them literally

507
00:16:56,550 --> 00:16:53,920
being elevated into the air by

508
00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:56,560
propellers uh whether that's

509
00:16:59,749 --> 00:16:58,480
an erroneous description by a witness or

510
00:17:03,430 --> 00:16:59,759
that's actually

511
00:17:04,789 --> 00:17:03,440
the form that the phenomenon takes to

512
00:17:06,789 --> 00:17:04,799
be acceptable to the person that views

513
00:17:08,309 --> 00:17:06,799
it i don't know that's that's i think an

514
00:17:09,029 --> 00:17:08,319
interesting question which some people

515
00:17:11,669 --> 00:17:09,039
have kind of

516
00:17:12,069 --> 00:17:11,679
hinted at that idea so do you think

517
00:17:15,909 --> 00:17:12,079
they're

518
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:15,919
feeling like there's a

519
00:17:21,029 --> 00:17:19,039
interaction and what people kind of

520
00:17:24,230 --> 00:17:21,039
develop that they're seeing

521
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:24,240
is that that that would be my that my

522
00:17:28,390 --> 00:17:27,360
um my intuition let's say i'm still

523
00:17:30,310 --> 00:17:28,400
trying to kind of

524
00:17:31,750 --> 00:17:30,320
coming to grasp with how that exactly

525
00:17:33,190 --> 00:17:31,760
works but it there does seem to

526
00:17:34,549 --> 00:17:33,200
definitely be an interplay between the

527
00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:34,559
witness and

528
00:17:38,070 --> 00:17:36,720
the external stimulus whatever that that

529
00:17:39,990 --> 00:17:38,080
may be i mean we even

530
00:17:42,390 --> 00:17:40,000
we have plenty of cases where witnesses

531
00:17:44,830 --> 00:17:42,400
describe feeling as if the entire event

532
00:17:47,110 --> 00:17:44,840
was for them right

533
00:17:48,150 --> 00:17:47,120
yeah getting a sense of intelligence

534
00:17:50,630 --> 00:17:48,160
from an object

535
00:17:51,430 --> 00:17:50,640
as if you know they're being watched or

536
00:17:53,110 --> 00:17:51,440
things like that

537
00:17:54,789 --> 00:17:53,120
that that you would not seem to expect

538
00:17:56,549 --> 00:17:54,799
from just seeing and not i mean we

539
00:17:58,230 --> 00:17:56,559
wouldn't say that for a 747

540
00:18:00,310 --> 00:17:58,240
i use that example for we wouldn't

541
00:18:04,150 --> 00:18:00,320
assume the pilot is directing their

542
00:18:05,830 --> 00:18:04,160
their attention towards us um

543
00:18:07,190 --> 00:18:05,840
so if that if that answers what you but

544
00:18:07,909 --> 00:18:07,200
you know when we try to look at things

545
00:18:12,870 --> 00:18:07,919
more

546
00:18:14,150 --> 00:18:12,880
how what some of these things represent

547
00:18:15,669 --> 00:18:14,160
it becomes difficult because

548
00:18:17,750 --> 00:18:15,679
you sound as if you're interpreting this

549
00:18:19,669 --> 00:18:17,760
as a purely psychological

550
00:18:21,190 --> 00:18:19,679
thing right whereas when when it does

551
00:18:21,990 --> 00:18:21,200
seem to be there's an interplay between

552
00:18:24,789 --> 00:18:22,000
whatever this

553
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:24,799
thing is and the witness it's really

554
00:18:27,350 --> 00:18:25,440
hard to

555
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:27,360
to kind of grasp where that where that

556
00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:28,720
occurs it does definitely seem to be an

557
00:18:33,270 --> 00:18:30,320
interactive thing right that the

558
00:18:34,950 --> 00:18:33,280
yeah the phenomenon objectively exists

559
00:18:37,669 --> 00:18:34,960
and some physical it leaves physical

560
00:18:39,270 --> 00:18:37,679
traces it does appear on radar at times

561
00:18:41,029 --> 00:18:39,280
but it also has these non-physical

562
00:18:42,310 --> 00:18:41,039
characteristics where it can disappear

563
00:18:45,029 --> 00:18:42,320
in front of a person

564
00:18:46,390 --> 00:18:45,039
you know these these these um these

565
00:18:47,909 --> 00:18:46,400
kinds of behaviors that don't fit in

566
00:18:48,789 --> 00:18:47,919
what we expect from a physical object

567
00:18:50,630 --> 00:18:48,799
necessarily

568
00:18:52,070 --> 00:18:50,640
almost similar to if we talk about

569
00:18:52,870 --> 00:18:52,080
ghosts and poltergeists right they

570
00:18:55,510 --> 00:18:52,880
almost fit

571
00:18:57,110 --> 00:18:55,520
fit more easily into those kinds of

572
00:18:59,830 --> 00:18:57,120
physics if you want to say that

573
00:19:00,950 --> 00:18:59,840
right yeah well a couple things uh

574
00:19:04,630 --> 00:19:00,960
observations

575
00:19:06,630 --> 00:19:04,640
one of them is you just mentioned that

576
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:06,640
a number of people or people sometimes

577
00:19:09,350 --> 00:19:08,960
think that it's kind of directed at them

578
00:19:11,590 --> 00:19:09,360
and i

579
00:19:13,350 --> 00:19:11,600
i can tell you so many people that i've

580
00:19:17,270 --> 00:19:13,360
talked to on this show

581
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:17,280
and even off this show um you know

582
00:19:20,789 --> 00:19:18,880
i was speaking with someone that's very

583
00:19:23,590 --> 00:19:20,799
well known and uh

584
00:19:25,909 --> 00:19:23,600
he basically not not i mean in the ufo

585
00:19:29,590 --> 00:19:25,919
field but also in another industry

586
00:19:31,510 --> 00:19:29,600
and uh he was basically saying that

587
00:19:32,870 --> 00:19:31,520
this object came down he actually has

588
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:32,880
some really good footage that

589
00:19:37,669 --> 00:19:35,120
i'm trying to get from him um of this

590
00:19:40,630 --> 00:19:37,679
thing coming down he said it came down

591
00:19:41,750 --> 00:19:40,640
you know it was it was it was signific

592
00:19:44,950 --> 00:19:41,760
signaling to me

593
00:19:46,549 --> 00:19:44,960
he said which is really and

594
00:19:48,150 --> 00:19:46,559
you know he's not the only one a lot of

595
00:19:50,070 --> 00:19:48,160
people um there was

596
00:19:51,750 --> 00:19:50,080
there's a long time ufo researcher has

597
00:19:52,710 --> 00:19:51,760
been around forever he lives in hawaii

598
00:19:55,990 --> 00:19:52,720
now

599
00:19:59,270 --> 00:19:56,000
ted rowe who is on this show and and

600
00:20:01,190 --> 00:19:59,280
um likes to take you know a real solid

601
00:20:03,270 --> 00:20:01,200
scientific look at things and he

602
00:20:05,430 --> 00:20:03,280
basically said the same thing when he

603
00:20:07,270 --> 00:20:05,440
was in oakland driving along

604
00:20:09,750 --> 00:20:07,280
he saw this object and he knew that it

605
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:09,760
was you know putting itself in front of

606
00:20:14,070 --> 00:20:11,520
him for him to see

607
00:20:15,669 --> 00:20:14,080
right and you know and you have to

608
00:20:17,750 --> 00:20:15,679
question

609
00:20:19,510 --> 00:20:17,760
they they must want to be seen because

610
00:20:21,190 --> 00:20:19,520
they're certainly not hiding and you

611
00:20:21,909 --> 00:20:21,200
know they have lights a lot of them have

612
00:20:25,110 --> 00:20:21,919
lights

613
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:25,120
whatever they are right it it becomes

614
00:20:28,390 --> 00:20:26,400
almost uh

615
00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:28,400
i think eddie bullard has talked about

616
00:20:32,149 --> 00:20:29,520
this uh

617
00:20:34,390 --> 00:20:32,159
a shamanic initiatory journey in a sense

618
00:20:36,149 --> 00:20:34,400
right this experience of interacting

619
00:20:37,669 --> 00:20:36,159
with this unknown thing and then coming

620
00:20:40,149 --> 00:20:37,679
back to your society

621
00:20:41,669 --> 00:20:40,159
sorry my dog uh and uh explaining that

622
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:41,679
in your culture and to your

623
00:20:46,549 --> 00:20:44,559
to your social circle right it becomes a

624
00:20:48,950 --> 00:20:46,559
very much um

625
00:20:50,310 --> 00:20:48,960
a journey that that does have have um

626
00:20:51,669 --> 00:20:50,320
correlates with what we typically talk

627
00:20:53,430 --> 00:20:51,679
about is shamanic journeys and so do

628
00:20:55,270 --> 00:20:53,440
near-death experiences right

629
00:20:56,870 --> 00:20:55,280
uh eddie's done a lot of work uh

630
00:20:58,470 --> 00:20:56,880
discussing that and i think it's really

631
00:21:00,310 --> 00:20:58,480
really insightful of course valet has

632
00:21:03,190 --> 00:21:00,320
noticed a similar thing where these

633
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:03,200
they seem to be experiences more how can

634
00:21:06,549 --> 00:21:04,080
i phrase this

635
00:21:09,510 --> 00:21:06,559
almost more that the experiences of the

636
00:21:11,510 --> 00:21:09,520
as should be of interest as the

637
00:21:13,270 --> 00:21:11,520
the external stimulus right if that

638
00:21:13,830 --> 00:21:13,280
makes sense maybe what they're made of

639
00:21:17,909 --> 00:21:13,840
is

640
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:17,919
important when we consider the meaning

641
00:21:21,909 --> 00:21:20,880
right um is the actual intention or the

642
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:21,919
whole point of this

643
00:21:24,870 --> 00:21:23,760
for people to have these experiences i

644
00:21:26,149 --> 00:21:24,880
mean i i don't know that's what it

645
00:21:27,830 --> 00:21:26,159
sounds like when the way some people

646
00:21:30,630 --> 00:21:27,840
describe it

647
00:21:32,070 --> 00:21:30,640
yeah yeah it's it's all fascinating and

648
00:21:33,430 --> 00:21:32,080
that's why i like to have

649
00:21:36,070 --> 00:21:33,440
people like you on the show with a

650
00:21:38,710 --> 00:21:36,080
different you know perspective on

651
00:21:40,710 --> 00:21:38,720
on what these things are because as i

652
00:21:42,950 --> 00:21:40,720
say many times i have no idea

653
00:21:44,630 --> 00:21:42,960
what's going on less of an idea in nine

654
00:21:45,990 --> 00:21:44,640
years

655
00:21:47,750 --> 00:21:46,000
right you know which is a healthy

656
00:21:51,190 --> 00:21:47,760
attitude because i think anybody in

657
00:21:53,110 --> 00:21:51,200
in and ufos or flying saucers as uh

658
00:21:54,549 --> 00:21:53,120
as i still like to call it that promises

659
00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:54,559
answers probably have the least

660
00:21:58,310 --> 00:21:55,760
available but

661
00:22:00,070 --> 00:21:58,320
you know they're they're um definitely

662
00:22:01,350 --> 00:22:00,080
does seem to be an impact in in

663
00:22:03,110 --> 00:22:01,360
the lives of the witness that might

664
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:03,120
almost to me supersede the

665
00:22:07,190 --> 00:22:05,679
the uh i don't want to discount things

666
00:22:08,870 --> 00:22:07,200
like physical exams of

667
00:22:10,549 --> 00:22:08,880
landing cases and things like that those

668
00:22:11,909 --> 00:22:10,559
are obviously important but to kind of

669
00:22:13,510 --> 00:22:11,919
look at it from a more social or

670
00:22:14,870 --> 00:22:13,520
psychological perspective as well and

671
00:22:15,909 --> 00:22:14,880
what this actually means for the

672
00:22:18,230 --> 00:22:15,919
individual

673
00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:18,240
um that seems to be the only really

674
00:22:20,390 --> 00:22:19,679
lasting mark that some of these things

675
00:22:22,070 --> 00:22:20,400
have left

676
00:22:24,149 --> 00:22:22,080
is in the people that they've touched

677
00:22:27,190 --> 00:22:24,159
right in many cases at least

678
00:22:29,190 --> 00:22:27,200
um so how how does something how do you

679
00:22:31,430 --> 00:22:29,200
think something like that

680
00:22:32,710 --> 00:22:31,440
um works with when there's a mass

681
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:32,720
sighting

682
00:22:36,549 --> 00:22:36,000
you know like many many ways right right

683
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:36,559
well it

684
00:22:41,270 --> 00:22:39,840
you know it's it comes down i think in

685
00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:41,280
one sense to talk about and i mentioned

686
00:22:44,310 --> 00:22:42,480
this before we got on

687
00:22:45,830 --> 00:22:44,320
what what's been termed high intensity

688
00:22:47,029 --> 00:22:45,840
and low intensity sightings

689
00:22:49,110 --> 00:22:47,039
i think you could also kind of change

690
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:49,120
the name of that to high impact and low

691
00:22:51,750 --> 00:22:50,159
impact sightings

692
00:22:53,830 --> 00:22:51,760
people seeing a light in the sky at

693
00:22:55,430 --> 00:22:53,840
night they can't identify may or may not

694
00:22:57,190 --> 00:22:55,440
take that to be a life-changing event

695
00:22:58,230 --> 00:22:57,200
and that lead into a narrative about

696
00:23:01,190 --> 00:22:58,240
their experience

697
00:23:03,830 --> 00:23:01,200
um what we'd expect to be more impactful

698
00:23:05,990 --> 00:23:03,840
obviously entity encounters abductions

699
00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:06,000
close-up sightings of structured objects

700
00:23:09,190 --> 00:23:07,840
these would fall under what

701
00:23:10,950 --> 00:23:09,200
generally has been found as high

702
00:23:11,990 --> 00:23:10,960
intensity or high impact sightings right

703
00:23:14,230 --> 00:23:12,000
that typically

704
00:23:15,110 --> 00:23:14,240
may make a lasting change on on the

705
00:23:17,830 --> 00:23:15,120
person

706
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:17,840
um and there's still a lot of research

707
00:23:20,630 --> 00:23:18,880
to be done here

708
00:23:22,789 --> 00:23:20,640
i think and in terms of what the the

709
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:22,799
long-term impacts of these kind of

710
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:25,120
significant let's call them sightings or

711
00:23:27,750 --> 00:23:25,919
events are

712
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:27,760
um i talked a little bit about kenneth

713
00:23:32,149 --> 00:23:29,039
ring he looked at near-death

714
00:23:34,390 --> 00:23:32,159
experiencers and ufo experiencers and

715
00:23:35,270 --> 00:23:34,400
found changes in physiology even things

716
00:23:38,310 --> 00:23:35,280
like allergies

717
00:23:40,870 --> 00:23:38,320
sometimes changes in just general

718
00:23:42,549 --> 00:23:40,880
level of um what he called psychic

719
00:23:43,590 --> 00:23:42,559
awareness or paranormal awareness

720
00:23:46,070 --> 00:23:43,600
increases in

721
00:23:47,909 --> 00:23:46,080
esp or reported esp events things like

722
00:23:48,470 --> 00:23:47,919
that which is also as you probably well

723
00:23:50,789 --> 00:23:48,480
know

724
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:50,799
associated with the ufo literature which

725
00:23:54,870 --> 00:23:53,200
which why should it be i think why

726
00:23:55,909 --> 00:23:54,880
to take an extraterrestrial if we're

727
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:55,919
gonna go down that road an

728
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:57,760
extraterrestrial explanation why would

729
00:24:00,230 --> 00:23:58,559
these be

730
00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:00,240
the kinds of you know why would we see

731
00:24:04,630 --> 00:24:02,720
esp and poltergeist effects associated

732
00:24:04,950 --> 00:24:04,640
with an extraterrestrial visitation i i

733
00:24:07,190 --> 00:24:04,960
don't

734
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:07,200
you know i could only presume to try to

735
00:24:12,070 --> 00:24:09,360
guess at the answer to that but it's

736
00:24:13,909 --> 00:24:12,080
yeah you know the the ariel school

737
00:24:16,630 --> 00:24:13,919
encounter are you familiar with that one

738
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:16,640
right yeah that one is profound i think

739
00:24:20,870 --> 00:24:17,440
that's

740
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:20,880
but it's closer

741
00:24:27,430 --> 00:24:24,240
to my top very top of all the uh

742
00:24:30,310 --> 00:24:27,440
encounters and so interesting and

743
00:24:30,630 --> 00:24:30,320
um so you have uh you know you can see

744
00:24:33,750 --> 00:24:30,640
the

745
00:24:36,950 --> 00:24:33,760
children

746
00:24:39,590 --> 00:24:36,960
as time has gone on and um i i keep

747
00:24:40,630 --> 00:24:39,600
trying to push uh randy nickerson the

748
00:24:43,110 --> 00:24:40,640
creator of the uh

749
00:24:43,750 --> 00:24:43,120
ariel phenomenon movie to get that thing

750
00:24:45,750 --> 00:24:43,760
released

751
00:24:47,750 --> 00:24:45,760
i really want to see i remember that

752
00:24:50,310 --> 00:24:47,760
yeah yeah i wanted him to get that movie

753
00:24:52,549 --> 00:24:50,320
released before those kids turned 40.

754
00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:52,559
right yeah that's another amazing

755
00:24:55,830 --> 00:24:53,840
incident you know where you talk about

756
00:24:58,070 --> 00:24:55,840
lifelong impact and and

757
00:24:59,590 --> 00:24:58,080
i i've seen remember from from my i

758
00:25:02,149 --> 00:24:59,600
watched the videos of john mack

759
00:25:02,950 --> 00:25:02,159
interviewing the kids uh the interaction

760
00:25:04,149 --> 00:25:02,960
was was of

761
00:25:06,070 --> 00:25:04,159
of interest they were con they were

762
00:25:07,350 --> 00:25:06,080
conveyed information especially about

763
00:25:09,669 --> 00:25:07,360
planetary

764
00:25:10,390 --> 00:25:09,679
um pollution things like some of the

765
00:25:12,789 --> 00:25:10,400
kids at least

766
00:25:14,710 --> 00:25:12,799
technology right that there was a

767
00:25:18,390 --> 00:25:14,720
message delivered there and it wasn't

768
00:25:20,950 --> 00:25:18,400
even necessarily you know verbal it was

769
00:25:21,909 --> 00:25:20,960
yeah in the head so to speak so yeah it

770
00:25:24,630 --> 00:25:21,919
came to me

771
00:25:25,029 --> 00:25:24,640
one of them says right you know right

772
00:25:28,870 --> 00:25:25,039
yeah

773
00:25:31,590 --> 00:25:28,880
interviews give me chills

774
00:25:32,470 --> 00:25:31,600
to watch yeah yeah and you know it does

775
00:25:34,710 --> 00:25:32,480
start to

776
00:25:36,230 --> 00:25:34,720
we talk about this idea and ufology of a

777
00:25:38,390 --> 00:25:36,240
control system of what

778
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:38,400
if these are measurable impacts that

779
00:25:42,549 --> 00:25:40,080
occur in people's lives and they are

780
00:25:44,870 --> 00:25:42,559
causing societal changes is this

781
00:25:46,630 --> 00:25:44,880
you know in some sense say what would be

782
00:25:49,029 --> 00:25:46,640
the indoctrination i guess we could

783
00:25:49,830 --> 00:25:49,039
we could ask program and to what end you

784
00:25:53,909 --> 00:25:49,840
know

785
00:25:56,470 --> 00:25:53,919
but um yeah

786
00:25:58,149 --> 00:25:56,480
you know it's affected the them in

787
00:26:01,269 --> 00:25:58,159
different ways you know i've talked to

788
00:26:03,669 --> 00:26:01,279
i think four witnesses now um from that

789
00:26:04,630 --> 00:26:03,679
event and it's all you know it's changed

790
00:26:08,549 --> 00:26:04,640
their lives

791
00:26:11,909 --> 00:26:08,559
quite a bit you know and um and

792
00:26:14,470 --> 00:26:11,919
uh selma citic um

793
00:26:15,110 --> 00:26:14,480
you know it's just it's amazing you know

794
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:15,120
how

795
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:17,440
uh hasn't affected her so much as it has

796
00:26:21,110 --> 00:26:18,880
some of the others

797
00:26:22,870 --> 00:26:21,120
you know as far as uh emotionally and

798
00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:22,880
all that but but a few of them it has

799
00:26:25,669 --> 00:26:23,279
really

800
00:26:26,950 --> 00:26:25,679
affected them emotionally and and um

801
00:26:29,269 --> 00:26:26,960
when i talked to

802
00:26:31,029 --> 00:26:29,279
randy nickerson some of the people he

803
00:26:32,950 --> 00:26:31,039
did get a hold of said no they never

804
00:26:36,070 --> 00:26:32,960
want to talk about that again

805
00:26:36,549 --> 00:26:36,080
so that has that effect you know on some

806
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:36,559
of them

807
00:26:40,870 --> 00:26:38,880
and so what is your how does your

808
00:26:42,470 --> 00:26:40,880
research kind of fit into a situation

809
00:26:44,390 --> 00:26:42,480
like that

810
00:26:46,230 --> 00:26:44,400
well first it reminds me a little bit of

811
00:26:47,029 --> 00:26:46,240
what i think it was john keel who talked

812
00:26:49,909 --> 00:26:47,039
about the

813
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:49,919
the silent contact e who may never you

814
00:26:51,990 --> 00:26:50,320
know

815
00:26:53,830 --> 00:26:52,000
divulge they've had an experience that

816
00:26:55,350 --> 00:26:53,840
may just be as amazing as someone who

817
00:26:56,630 --> 00:26:55,360
has talked about it that kind of reminds

818
00:26:57,430 --> 00:26:56,640
me of that there could be people that

819
00:26:59,190 --> 00:26:57,440
have had

820
00:27:00,950 --> 00:26:59,200
or there must be people who've had these

821
00:27:02,950 --> 00:27:00,960
kinds of experiences who don't want to

822
00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:02,960
divulge or even address it you know like

823
00:27:07,669 --> 00:27:04,400
you've mentioned

824
00:27:09,110 --> 00:27:07,679
it's to me it is um this is where the

825
00:27:09,990 --> 00:27:09,120
rubber meets the road when you talk

826
00:27:12,470 --> 00:27:10,000
about

827
00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:12,480
sightings of of cases involving entities

828
00:27:15,750 --> 00:27:13,360
with multiple

829
00:27:16,630 --> 00:27:15,760
people multiple witnesses involved there

830
00:27:18,870 --> 00:27:16,640
was obviously

831
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:18,880
something there that these kids saw yet

832
00:27:21,830 --> 00:27:20,880
they to some degree or another many of

833
00:27:23,590 --> 00:27:21,840
them took away

834
00:27:25,350 --> 00:27:23,600
a little bit of a different message

835
00:27:27,190 --> 00:27:25,360
which is interesting i mean there were

836
00:27:27,990 --> 00:27:27,200
overarching concerns about about the

837
00:27:32,389 --> 00:27:28,000
planet and

838
00:27:38,389 --> 00:27:35,669
yeah that's but you know to what end

839
00:27:39,990 --> 00:27:38,399
right is that is that an intentional is

840
00:27:41,510 --> 00:27:40,000
that an intentional

841
00:27:43,350 --> 00:27:41,520
objective on the part of the phenomenon

842
00:27:44,470 --> 00:27:43,360
to kind of transmit these ideas is it

843
00:27:46,470 --> 00:27:44,480
just something that we

844
00:27:48,549 --> 00:27:46,480
as human beings and here we get in you

845
00:27:50,230 --> 00:27:48,559
know again to this jungian idea are we

846
00:27:51,669 --> 00:27:50,240
are we interpreting these things based

847
00:27:53,830 --> 00:27:51,679
on our own inner

848
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:53,840
experiences and our own dynamics right

849
00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:55,200
that that you know the

850
00:27:59,590 --> 00:27:57,679
these beings would be would have those

851
00:27:59,909 --> 00:27:59,600
concerns and convey them to the to us

852
00:28:02,230 --> 00:27:59,919
right

853
00:28:03,830 --> 00:28:02,240
is it some combination of the two which

854
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:03,840
i think is most interesting but of

855
00:28:06,310 --> 00:28:04,480
course the

856
00:28:08,070 --> 00:28:06,320
one that be hard is hardest to prove

857
00:28:09,590 --> 00:28:08,080
right that there is some kind of

858
00:28:11,510 --> 00:28:09,600
interaction between what people

859
00:28:13,110 --> 00:28:11,520
physically experience and that

860
00:28:14,789 --> 00:28:13,120
seeming to impact them in a way that

861
00:28:15,350 --> 00:28:14,799
maybe if we were observing we might not

862
00:28:18,630 --> 00:28:15,360
even know

863
00:28:21,909 --> 00:28:18,640
be able to see right wow

864
00:28:23,750 --> 00:28:21,919
here's a question from stephen up here

865
00:28:28,549 --> 00:28:23,760
are you interested in the psychological

866
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:30,389
i think they're both my interest really

867
00:28:33,830 --> 00:28:32,240
is more interest right now i'm more

868
00:28:35,029 --> 00:28:33,840
interested in what the impact is because

869
00:28:36,470 --> 00:28:35,039
i can

870
00:28:37,909 --> 00:28:36,480
that's something that we can look at the

871
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:37,919
changes and measure those changes and

872
00:28:40,950 --> 00:28:38,559
kind of

873
00:28:42,870 --> 00:28:40,960
psychologically examine that that impact

874
00:28:44,789 --> 00:28:42,880
uh look at personality

875
00:28:46,630 --> 00:28:44,799
you know traits that change things like

876
00:28:49,190 --> 00:28:46,640
that of course the interest

877
00:28:50,630 --> 00:28:49,200
is it's harder to get at what's actually

878
00:28:53,669 --> 00:28:50,640
happening in the moment i think

879
00:28:55,990 --> 00:28:53,679
right um again when we bring in the hard

880
00:28:58,310 --> 00:28:56,000
sciences physics and and testing for

881
00:29:00,310 --> 00:28:58,320
you know trace cases things like that

882
00:29:02,389 --> 00:29:00,320
these all these things can play together

883
00:29:03,750 --> 00:29:02,399
but yeah i think and to answer that

884
00:29:06,149 --> 00:29:03,760
question directly

885
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:06,159
the impact is is what i think is most

886
00:29:10,470 --> 00:29:07,840
easily studied maybe if that's

887
00:29:11,990 --> 00:29:10,480
if that answers it yeah i could see that

888
00:29:15,590 --> 00:29:12,000
uh just a couple of things i

889
00:29:17,510 --> 00:29:15,600
i have talked to the people that were

890
00:29:18,230 --> 00:29:17,520
involved in the allagash incident which

891
00:29:21,510 --> 00:29:18,240
is a

892
00:29:24,549 --> 00:29:21,520
a really interesting case and

893
00:29:25,669 --> 00:29:24,559
the two changes that it made in two out

894
00:29:28,549 --> 00:29:25,679
of the four people

895
00:29:29,909 --> 00:29:28,559
one he completely changed his artwork he

896
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:29,919
was painting in one way and all of a

897
00:29:35,750 --> 00:29:32,080
sudden he starts painting geometric

898
00:29:38,630 --> 00:29:35,760
and the other one was one of the

899
00:29:40,070 --> 00:29:38,640
witnesses uh didn't really ever pay

900
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:40,080
attention to math and all of a sudden he

901
00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:41,120
became

902
00:29:44,389 --> 00:29:43,440
so good at it he actually worked for

903
00:29:46,630 --> 00:29:44,399
nasa

904
00:29:47,990 --> 00:29:46,640
eventually right you know using

905
00:29:52,070 --> 00:29:48,000
mathematical

906
00:29:55,110 --> 00:29:52,080
um equations and i'm not sure exactly

907
00:29:56,710 --> 00:29:55,120
what he did but um and so

908
00:29:59,830 --> 00:29:56,720
that that's interesting now i have to

909
00:30:01,669 --> 00:29:59,840
tell you about a a friend of mine

910
00:30:03,029 --> 00:30:01,679
and his reaction because it's just so

911
00:30:04,789 --> 00:30:03,039
bizarre

912
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:04,799
i have a friend i i shared an office

913
00:30:08,549 --> 00:30:06,880
with him and he

914
00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:08,559
he's uh well known for the antiques

915
00:30:11,510 --> 00:30:10,080
roadshow i'll just say that he's on the

916
00:30:14,070 --> 00:30:11,520
antiques roadshow

917
00:30:15,430 --> 00:30:14,080
and so um and i've mentioned this

918
00:30:17,590 --> 00:30:15,440
sighting before

919
00:30:19,269 --> 00:30:17,600
and his reaction on this show so for the

920
00:30:19,830 --> 00:30:19,279
long time listener you have to bear with

921
00:30:24,789 --> 00:30:19,840
me

922
00:30:26,549 --> 00:30:24,799
you know he finds out that i'm doing a

923
00:30:27,990 --> 00:30:26,559
ufo show because someone

924
00:30:30,389 --> 00:30:28,000
came into the office and they started

925
00:30:32,950 --> 00:30:30,399
talking ufos even though it's an antique

926
00:30:33,510 --> 00:30:32,960
you know appraisal office is what it was

927
00:30:36,549 --> 00:30:33,520
so

928
00:30:39,830 --> 00:30:36,559
well

929
00:30:40,710 --> 00:30:39,840
yeah tell me and he said he was at

930
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:40,720
amherst

931
00:30:46,710 --> 00:30:44,320
um college and he was in the dorm tower

932
00:30:48,149 --> 00:30:46,720
and he said with uh four or five other

933
00:30:48,950 --> 00:30:48,159
guys and he says i'm not going to say we

934
00:30:51,590 --> 00:30:48,960
weren't drinking

935
00:30:53,029 --> 00:30:51,600
but anyway had nothing to do with it he

936
00:30:54,149 --> 00:30:53,039
said all of a sudden something caught

937
00:30:57,350 --> 00:30:54,159
our eye in this

938
00:31:00,630 --> 00:30:57,360
box-like object came right

939
00:31:03,509 --> 00:31:00,640
into the mall in the the

940
00:31:04,389 --> 00:31:03,519
walkway above about the 15th floor or

941
00:31:06,149 --> 00:31:04,399
something

942
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:06,159
and he said it looked like a box and it

943
00:31:09,909 --> 00:31:07,840
had lights blinking all around and it

944
00:31:12,630 --> 00:31:09,919
just stayed there stationary

945
00:31:13,509 --> 00:31:12,640
he said then all of a sudden it shot up

946
00:31:16,630 --> 00:31:13,519
toward the

947
00:31:18,149 --> 00:31:16,640
mountains and he says then this jet came

948
00:31:19,990 --> 00:31:18,159
and came toward it and he said all of a

949
00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:20,000
sudden it burst into lights

950
00:31:23,909 --> 00:31:21,919
five lights and the lights started

951
00:31:27,190 --> 00:31:23,919
blinking back and forth

952
00:31:29,029 --> 00:31:27,200
and so i go oh my goodness i said

953
00:31:31,750 --> 00:31:29,039
what did what did you think after that

954
00:31:34,549 --> 00:31:31,760
and you said i could give a bleep

955
00:31:34,950 --> 00:31:34,559
he says i never even think about it so i

956
00:31:37,190 --> 00:31:34,960
guess that's

957
00:31:38,549 --> 00:31:37,200
intriguing to me yeah yeah that's

958
00:31:38,870 --> 00:31:38,559
because how often can you ask people

959
00:31:40,389 --> 00:31:38,880
that

960
00:31:41,430 --> 00:31:40,399
you know usually if you're talking ufos

961
00:31:42,310 --> 00:31:41,440
with somebody it's because they're

962
00:31:43,750 --> 00:31:42,320
interested either

963
00:31:45,350 --> 00:31:43,760
they had a personal experience and they

964
00:31:46,950 --> 00:31:45,360
place value in it but

965
00:31:48,470 --> 00:31:46,960
again getting back to that original or

966
00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:48,480
that that previous idea there got it

967
00:31:51,350 --> 00:31:48,960
there are

968
00:31:52,389 --> 00:31:51,360
non-impactful sightings for people but

969
00:31:53,590 --> 00:31:52,399
it's interesting to me that you could

970
00:31:56,310 --> 00:31:53,600
have something that

971
00:31:56,870 --> 00:31:56,320
that um out there to see it and then

972
00:31:58,870 --> 00:31:56,880
just say

973
00:32:00,230 --> 00:31:58,880
well you know whatever but sure some

974
00:32:01,990 --> 00:32:00,240
people yeah

975
00:32:04,389 --> 00:32:02,000
it's like it did which is you know the

976
00:32:06,070 --> 00:32:04,399
and again the the reaction to ufo

977
00:32:07,750 --> 00:32:06,080
sightings is not in any way i want to

978
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:07,760
say it's homogeneous right that in other

979
00:32:10,710 --> 00:32:09,200
words that everybody is alike i don't

980
00:32:14,389 --> 00:32:10,720
want to imply the people

981
00:32:16,149 --> 00:32:14,399
or respond the same way to ufo sightings

982
00:32:17,029 --> 00:32:16,159
it's these these kind of similarities

983
00:32:19,029 --> 00:32:17,039
that we see

984
00:32:20,549 --> 00:32:19,039
over and over again which are which are

985
00:32:21,990 --> 00:32:20,559
interesting to me and including some

986
00:32:22,870 --> 00:32:22,000
things that happened during the sighting

987
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,880
as well which

988
00:32:26,389 --> 00:32:24,240
you know to go back to the question

989
00:32:27,350 --> 00:32:26,399
somebody asked that we see things like

990
00:32:28,950 --> 00:32:27,360
the the oz

991
00:32:30,630 --> 00:32:28,960
the oz effect that jenny randalls has

992
00:32:32,789 --> 00:32:30,640
talked about this kind of this

993
00:32:34,789 --> 00:32:32,799
this odd sense of reality not seeming

994
00:32:36,389 --> 00:32:34,799
quite right or not normal background

995
00:32:38,470 --> 00:32:36,399
noises ceasing

996
00:32:39,590 --> 00:32:38,480
um again the idea that the the

997
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:39,600
experiences was

998
00:32:43,909 --> 00:32:41,600
was designed specifically for the person

999
00:32:45,110 --> 00:32:43,919
involved um

1000
00:32:46,950 --> 00:32:45,120
sometimes and this is one that i've

1001
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:46,960
heard more rarely but but i've still

1002
00:32:49,509 --> 00:32:48,000
heard that actually

1003
00:32:51,110 --> 00:32:49,519
losing the ability to hear it all so

1004
00:32:51,590 --> 00:32:51,120
people conversing and then suddenly not

1005
00:32:53,509 --> 00:32:51,600
hearing

1006
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:53,519
each other when the sighting is going on

1007
00:32:56,149 --> 00:32:55,200
yeah i heard that too i've heard that

1008
00:32:59,029 --> 00:32:56,159
all right that happened at the

1009
00:33:01,430 --> 00:32:59,039
berkshires incident

1010
00:33:02,149 --> 00:33:01,440
yeah interesting so here's a question

1011
00:33:04,950 --> 00:33:02,159
from uh

1012
00:33:06,470 --> 00:33:04,960
mary grace uh do you think that

1013
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:06,480
something is switched

1014
00:33:13,909 --> 00:33:10,640
on in the brain of experiencers

1015
00:33:15,350 --> 00:33:13,919
right and this is i think this is a

1016
00:33:17,750 --> 00:33:15,360
possibility this is a way that

1017
00:33:18,789 --> 00:33:17,760
some have kind of viewed this um going

1018
00:33:20,950 --> 00:33:18,799
back again to

1019
00:33:22,549 --> 00:33:20,960
people like ken ring who who have looked

1020
00:33:23,990 --> 00:33:22,559
at these kind of similarities among

1021
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:24,000
people reporting

1022
00:33:27,990 --> 00:33:26,640
that and and more recent research some

1023
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:28,000
of you guys may have heard a little bit

1024
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:29,760
about the work gary nolan is doing on

1025
00:33:33,430 --> 00:33:31,919
the biology of people who report

1026
00:33:35,029 --> 00:33:33,440
these kinds of experiences there do seem

1027
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:35,039
to be things there that

1028
00:33:39,430 --> 00:33:37,200
um if i remember in his and i haven't

1029
00:33:41,110 --> 00:33:39,440
seen in depth what he's doing but their

1030
00:33:41,990 --> 00:33:41,120
their differences and caught a putamen

1031
00:33:43,750 --> 00:33:42,000
structure

1032
00:33:45,830 --> 00:33:43,760
and um and people who have these kind of

1033
00:33:47,669 --> 00:33:45,840
experiences so this brain structure

1034
00:33:48,710 --> 00:33:47,679
actually seems to have changed or be

1035
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:48,720
different than

1036
00:33:52,070 --> 00:33:51,039
than than the general population right

1037
00:33:53,990 --> 00:33:52,080
that maybe these

1038
00:33:55,669 --> 00:33:54,000
these people have an ability to tune

1039
00:33:56,470 --> 00:33:55,679
into something that that others might

1040
00:33:58,630 --> 00:33:56,480
not

1041
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:58,640
um i've also seen that that area

1042
00:34:02,549 --> 00:34:00,480
described as really into intuition

1043
00:34:04,070 --> 00:34:02,559
so kind of that that which if you think

1044
00:34:05,509 --> 00:34:04,080
about it probably makes some degree of

1045
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:05,519
sense that people who

1046
00:34:10,069 --> 00:34:07,840
who um have these kinds of experiences

1047
00:34:12,230 --> 00:34:10,079
may be able to more easily tune in to

1048
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:12,240
to other forms other forms of

1049
00:34:15,190 --> 00:34:13,119
information

1050
00:34:16,389 --> 00:34:15,200
and a concept called transliminality

1051
00:34:18,069 --> 00:34:16,399
sometimes comes up here

1052
00:34:19,829 --> 00:34:18,079
the ability to more easily accept

1053
00:34:21,669 --> 00:34:19,839
information through uh

1054
00:34:23,589 --> 00:34:21,679
into your conscious awareness stuff like

1055
00:34:25,190 --> 00:34:23,599
that so i would say that's definitely

1056
00:34:27,430 --> 00:34:25,200
where i think in the future

1057
00:34:28,470 --> 00:34:27,440
here is in terms of research in regards

1058
00:34:30,550 --> 00:34:28,480
to ufos and

1059
00:34:31,669 --> 00:34:30,560
the effects on people um what it is

1060
00:34:33,750 --> 00:34:31,679
about

1061
00:34:35,190 --> 00:34:33,760
specific individuals that may have some

1062
00:34:37,430 --> 00:34:35,200
especially a biological

1063
00:34:38,710 --> 00:34:37,440
marker that you can physically see you

1064
00:34:40,869 --> 00:34:38,720
know by imaging

1065
00:34:43,190 --> 00:34:40,879
um and what that relates to in terms of

1066
00:34:45,510 --> 00:34:43,200
their ability to experience

1067
00:34:47,030 --> 00:34:45,520
odd states of consciousness or odd

1068
00:34:49,669 --> 00:34:47,040
events or

1069
00:34:51,909 --> 00:34:49,679
um you know and again the similarities

1070
00:34:54,629 --> 00:34:51,919
that ring found that the people who are

1071
00:34:56,310 --> 00:34:54,639
prone to being able to encounter ufos as

1072
00:34:56,710 --> 00:34:56,320
he might phrase it i think he did phrase

1073
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:56,720
it

1074
00:35:01,990 --> 00:35:00,880
encounter things like near-death

1075
00:35:03,829 --> 00:35:02,000
experiences right

1076
00:35:04,950 --> 00:35:03,839
we could speculate that that maybe

1077
00:35:06,630 --> 00:35:04,960
there's some overlap there with

1078
00:35:07,589 --> 00:35:06,640
poltergeists when we talk about these

1079
00:35:11,670 --> 00:35:07,599
odd

1080
00:35:14,950 --> 00:35:11,680
experiences related to

1081
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:14,960
to ufos of course that's kind of been a

1082
00:35:17,750 --> 00:35:15,520
begging

1083
00:35:18,550 --> 00:35:17,760
question for for decades now is these

1084
00:35:21,030 --> 00:35:18,560
paranormal

1085
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:21,040
aspects of of ufos and what they what

1086
00:35:25,430 --> 00:35:23,040
they really indicate i mean

1087
00:35:27,589 --> 00:35:25,440
um poltergeists don't seem like they

1088
00:35:30,390 --> 00:35:27,599
should go with ufos yet we see

1089
00:35:32,230 --> 00:35:30,400
routinely or commonly i won't say

1090
00:35:35,109 --> 00:35:32,240
routinely but commonly that they do

1091
00:35:35,589 --> 00:35:35,119
which is to me very very intriguing well

1092
00:35:43,190 --> 00:35:35,599
you know

1093
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:43,200
i told you that i had what i could only

1094
00:35:46,870 --> 00:35:44,000
term as a ghost

1095
00:35:48,230 --> 00:35:46,880
experience you know and i've had a ufo

1096
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:48,240
experience

1097
00:35:54,310 --> 00:35:52,400
though

1098
00:35:55,829 --> 00:35:54,320
yeah i can skip that one as long as

1099
00:35:57,589 --> 00:35:55,839
you're able to report it after the fact

1100
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:57,599
i guess it's all right come back yeah i

1101
00:36:01,430 --> 00:35:58,240
suppose

1102
00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:01,440
yeah wow and i what i've seen so far has

1103
00:36:03,270 --> 00:36:02,960
just been kind of preliminary i'm sure

1104
00:36:04,950 --> 00:36:03,280
it's

1105
00:36:07,030 --> 00:36:04,960
a little farther along than the public

1106
00:36:09,430 --> 00:36:07,040
is aware but you know

1107
00:36:11,109 --> 00:36:09,440
small sample research a couple one one

1108
00:36:13,510 --> 00:36:11,119
dozen two dozen people that

1109
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:13,520
that are experiencers and and uh what

1110
00:36:16,150 --> 00:36:14,320
the byline

1111
00:36:18,069 --> 00:36:16,160
if there is a biological difference in

1112
00:36:19,510 --> 00:36:18,079
people who have reported these kinds of

1113
00:36:21,270 --> 00:36:19,520
encounters i think that would be kind of

1114
00:36:23,030 --> 00:36:21,280
groundbreaking

1115
00:36:24,470 --> 00:36:23,040
and you say that's kind of what gary

1116
00:36:26,310 --> 00:36:24,480
nolan is working on

1117
00:36:29,270 --> 00:36:26,320
whoops there goes that was yep that's

1118
00:36:30,870 --> 00:36:29,280
all right we'll still uh

1119
00:36:32,230 --> 00:36:30,880
i've seen just a little bit of that just

1120
00:36:33,670 --> 00:36:32,240
kind of was publicly available i don't

1121
00:36:34,870 --> 00:36:33,680
have any special insight into it but i

1122
00:36:36,550 --> 00:36:34,880
have seen some of the slides he's

1123
00:36:37,510 --> 00:36:36,560
presented with findings that there is a

1124
00:36:39,750 --> 00:36:37,520
difference

1125
00:36:41,670 --> 00:36:39,760
in the structure uh specifically i think

1126
00:36:42,230 --> 00:36:41,680
it's in the caudate putamen which is a

1127
00:36:45,829 --> 00:36:42,240
basal

1128
00:36:48,230 --> 00:36:45,839
ganglia structure um kind of a complex

1129
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:48,240
integrative structure which is hard to

1130
00:36:51,190 --> 00:36:49,839
you know but but as in some senses

1131
00:36:54,310 --> 00:36:51,200
related to an intuitive

1132
00:36:55,910 --> 00:36:54,320
capacity so i think he's found some some

1133
00:36:57,510 --> 00:36:55,920
evidence that there is a maybe stronger

1134
00:36:58,310 --> 00:36:57,520
connections in that area or hyper

1135
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:58,320
connectivity

1136
00:37:01,750 --> 00:37:00,720
or just larger structure something like

1137
00:37:02,950 --> 00:37:01,760
that i haven't

1138
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:02,960
you know again we'll have to see how

1139
00:37:09,589 --> 00:37:06,240
that comes out but well i guess when

1140
00:37:13,030 --> 00:37:09,599
you know you're your paradigm shifts

1141
00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:13,040
um you have some type of experience then

1142
00:37:16,470 --> 00:37:15,680
yes um you know you're going to be open

1143
00:37:18,069 --> 00:37:16,480
to

1144
00:37:20,710 --> 00:37:18,079
you know there's a lot of things going

1145
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:20,720
on that maybe i don't know about

1146
00:37:24,150 --> 00:37:23,119
sure sure yeah the idea that it did that

1147
00:37:26,310 --> 00:37:24,160
can just open

1148
00:37:27,349 --> 00:37:26,320
open up these kinds of alternate sources

1149
00:37:29,910 --> 00:37:27,359
of information

1150
00:37:31,589 --> 00:37:29,920
right so um maybe they're not

1151
00:37:33,750 --> 00:37:31,599
necessarily directly

1152
00:37:35,670 --> 00:37:33,760
you know related ufos and and poultry

1153
00:37:38,150 --> 00:37:35,680
guys maybe people after having

1154
00:37:39,670 --> 00:37:38,160
their eyes open to the uh you know the

1155
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:39,680
ufo encounter are more likely to

1156
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:41,280
experiment more prone to be

1157
00:37:46,390 --> 00:37:44,400
accepting of i don't know but it does it

1158
00:37:48,470 --> 00:37:46,400
gets difficult there but we do see

1159
00:37:49,510 --> 00:37:48,480
there are reports in in the literature

1160
00:37:52,230 --> 00:37:49,520
of

1161
00:37:53,030 --> 00:37:52,240
common uh it's not uncommon let's say

1162
00:37:54,710 --> 00:37:53,040
for people to

1163
00:37:56,630 --> 00:37:54,720
say that before a sighting or before an

1164
00:37:59,990 --> 00:37:56,640
event or a poltergeist event

1165
00:38:02,310 --> 00:38:00,000
the ufo event that there are um

1166
00:38:03,910 --> 00:38:02,320
what would be the term i want to say

1167
00:38:05,750 --> 00:38:03,920
kind of liminal triggers but things in

1168
00:38:07,510 --> 00:38:05,760
the house might be being uh

1169
00:38:09,589 --> 00:38:07,520
disorganized because the house is being

1170
00:38:11,030 --> 00:38:09,599
renovated right

1171
00:38:12,630 --> 00:38:11,040
things were slightly off that day

1172
00:38:14,069 --> 00:38:12,640
because i took a different route to work

1173
00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:14,079
i've heard that one a few times right

1174
00:38:16,150 --> 00:38:14,640
that

1175
00:38:17,750 --> 00:38:16,160
siding occurred on just an alternate

1176
00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:17,760
route to work i just took because i

1177
00:38:20,630 --> 00:38:18,880
don't know why

1178
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:20,640
that to me is an important question why

1179
00:38:25,349 --> 00:38:22,320
right why were you there

1180
00:38:26,870 --> 00:38:25,359
um so that that to me is is

1181
00:38:28,550 --> 00:38:26,880
you know is there an intention behind

1182
00:38:31,670 --> 00:38:28,560
that that's causing these kinds of

1183
00:38:32,950 --> 00:38:31,680
things but it's difficult of course to

1184
00:38:35,109 --> 00:38:32,960
to really get into i think that's what

1185
00:38:36,230 --> 00:38:35,119
we need is more of a more of a social

1186
00:38:38,710 --> 00:38:36,240
approach to

1187
00:38:40,550 --> 00:38:38,720
to uh the impact and the the experiences

1188
00:38:41,430 --> 00:38:40,560
right really looking at the experiences

1189
00:38:43,430 --> 00:38:41,440
of people

1190
00:38:45,829 --> 00:38:43,440
uh just as as much as we we might the

1191
00:38:46,710 --> 00:38:45,839
physical aspect of what the craft looked

1192
00:38:48,390 --> 00:38:46,720
like or what the

1193
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:48,400
what remains it might have left or

1194
00:38:52,069 --> 00:38:49,839
things like that

1195
00:38:53,670 --> 00:38:52,079
so when you're working with the scu is

1196
00:38:57,910 --> 00:38:53,680
this kind of the path

1197
00:38:59,910 --> 00:38:57,920
that you're on yes i mean i've been in

1198
00:39:01,670 --> 00:38:59,920
in kind of private industry now for a

1199
00:39:02,790 --> 00:39:01,680
while past couple years i'm not really

1200
00:39:04,150 --> 00:39:02,800
i'm probably gonna

1201
00:39:06,069 --> 00:39:04,160
go back and do some teaching but i don't

1202
00:39:08,150 --> 00:39:06,079
really do research in terms of you know

1203
00:39:10,790 --> 00:39:08,160
university research anymore i

1204
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:10,800
i see that we we do have a lot of strong

1205
00:39:14,150 --> 00:39:12,560
folks in the physical sciences and scu

1206
00:39:15,990 --> 00:39:14,160
they've done some great work

1207
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:16,000
on the uh the nemet sighting and the

1208
00:39:18,870 --> 00:39:17,680
video on things like that but

1209
00:39:20,470 --> 00:39:18,880
i think there are really only two or

1210
00:39:21,270 --> 00:39:20,480
three of us that that are in the social

1211
00:39:23,109 --> 00:39:21,280
sciences

1212
00:39:24,390 --> 00:39:23,119
um it doesn't seem like there's as big

1213
00:39:26,710 --> 00:39:24,400
of a

1214
00:39:27,510 --> 00:39:26,720
you know contingent there i just kind of

1215
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:27,520
like to see

1216
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:30,400
other people take up that you know and

1217
00:39:33,109 --> 00:39:31,359
it seems like it's

1218
00:39:34,470 --> 00:39:33,119
it's something that with what gary's

1219
00:39:36,230 --> 00:39:34,480
doing that there's a lot of

1220
00:39:38,630 --> 00:39:36,240
possibility there to actually find

1221
00:39:40,230 --> 00:39:38,640
measurable biological differences and

1222
00:39:40,710 --> 00:39:40,240
people who've had these experiences

1223
00:39:43,750 --> 00:39:40,720
seems

1224
00:39:45,430 --> 00:39:43,760
kind of like a game changer yeah the

1225
00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:45,440
camera's about ready to fall again

1226
00:39:50,550 --> 00:39:48,480
yeah i caught it there yeah yeah

1227
00:39:52,150 --> 00:39:50,560
yeah sorry go ahead no no you go ahead

1228
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:52,160
finish that i was just going to say that

1229
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:53,440
kind of goes all the way back to

1230
00:39:57,030 --> 00:39:54,800
when i started getting interested in

1231
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:57,040
ufos the social dynamic i

1232
00:40:00,150 --> 00:39:59,440
i was uh lucky to be mentored in some

1233
00:40:03,190 --> 00:40:00,160
sense by

1234
00:40:05,670 --> 00:40:03,200
jim mosley of saucer news who was uh for

1235
00:40:08,550 --> 00:40:05,680
years ran the longest running ufo

1236
00:40:09,430 --> 00:40:08,560
zine or magazine for decades and he was

1237
00:40:12,390 --> 00:40:09,440
always uh

1238
00:40:13,589 --> 00:40:12,400
interested in the social dynamics of of

1239
00:40:15,829 --> 00:40:13,599
both you know

1240
00:40:17,829 --> 00:40:15,839
of ufo sightings and within the ufo

1241
00:40:19,750 --> 00:40:17,839
community itself as well so

1242
00:40:21,349 --> 00:40:19,760
you know that kind of social social

1243
00:40:23,510 --> 00:40:21,359
aspect is what

1244
00:40:24,950 --> 00:40:23,520
i kind of caught on to i do believe we

1245
00:40:28,150 --> 00:40:24,960
have a blog about him

1246
00:40:29,349 --> 00:40:28,160
on our website yeah yeah not not all

1247
00:40:31,510 --> 00:40:29,359
that long ago

1248
00:40:33,349 --> 00:40:31,520
uh wow that's interesting i didn't know

1249
00:40:34,309 --> 00:40:33,359
i didn't know that of that connection

1250
00:40:35,910 --> 00:40:34,319
there

1251
00:40:37,990 --> 00:40:35,920
yeah i was actually lucky enough to be

1252
00:40:39,589 --> 00:40:38,000
uh contributing editor to uh

1253
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:39,599
jim's magazine for a few years which

1254
00:40:43,670 --> 00:40:41,040
means mainly i just fielded

1255
00:40:45,270 --> 00:40:43,680
calls from him you know going over the

1256
00:40:48,630 --> 00:40:45,280
new issue but yeah it was a great

1257
00:40:50,309 --> 00:40:48,640
great experience yeah how about that

1258
00:40:52,230 --> 00:40:50,319
so here's another question i don't know

1259
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:52,240
if you can read the screen i know you're

1260
00:40:57,349 --> 00:40:54,880
just using your phone there uh

1261
00:40:59,589 --> 00:40:57,359
thoughts on the skinwalker ranch in

1262
00:41:00,470 --> 00:40:59,599
light of the mix of ufos and paranormal

1263
00:41:03,430 --> 00:41:00,480
phenomena

1264
00:41:04,230 --> 00:41:03,440
i think uh he's kind of uh he or she is

1265
00:41:06,790 --> 00:41:04,240
kind of just

1266
00:41:08,550 --> 00:41:06,800
hinting along uh you know the mixture of

1267
00:41:11,750 --> 00:41:08,560
them all in one place

1268
00:41:14,069 --> 00:41:11,760
right right yes and it becomes

1269
00:41:15,829 --> 00:41:14,079
difficult to separate right i mean do we

1270
00:41:18,230 --> 00:41:15,839
when do we want to or should we

1271
00:41:19,589 --> 00:41:18,240
separate it you have this you have these

1272
00:41:21,190 --> 00:41:19,599
kinds of odd events that

1273
00:41:22,790 --> 00:41:21,200
we might not other than the the

1274
00:41:24,630 --> 00:41:22,800
sightings of actual

1275
00:41:26,150 --> 00:41:24,640
uf what we'd comment and commonly call

1276
00:41:28,150 --> 00:41:26,160
ufos and then you know

1277
00:41:30,150 --> 00:41:28,160
at the ranch the with these mysterious

1278
00:41:31,829 --> 00:41:30,160
animals and things like that what large

1279
00:41:33,589 --> 00:41:31,839
wolves that can be shot and

1280
00:41:35,510 --> 00:41:33,599
bulls getting out of pens and stuff like

1281
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,520
that

1282
00:41:39,190 --> 00:41:37,839
you know it definitely seemed almost uh

1283
00:41:41,430 --> 00:41:39,200
i don't want to say a great place for us

1284
00:41:43,670 --> 00:41:41,440
for a social experiment as well but

1285
00:41:46,150 --> 00:41:43,680
um some indication maybe that you know

1286
00:41:48,390 --> 00:41:46,160
having teams of people out there in this

1287
00:41:49,910 --> 00:41:48,400
i don't know you know i know they were

1288
00:41:51,750 --> 00:41:49,920
measuring the impact on

1289
00:41:53,270 --> 00:41:51,760
on the uh the people at the property as

1290
00:41:54,950 --> 00:41:53,280
well i believe

1291
00:41:56,470 --> 00:41:54,960
they did those studies but i i don't

1292
00:41:58,710 --> 00:41:56,480
know whatever came out of that but

1293
00:41:59,990 --> 00:41:58,720
that'd be interesting to see i watched a

1294
00:42:02,790 --> 00:42:00,000
little bit of the uh

1295
00:42:04,710 --> 00:42:02,800
this see this year they had a you know a

1296
00:42:06,470 --> 00:42:04,720
skinwalker ranch

1297
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:06,480
i can't remember the name of it it was

1298
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:09,040
um i think it might have been on history

1299
00:42:12,309 --> 00:42:10,640
or travel channel or history channel i

1300
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:12,319
can't remember um

1301
00:42:15,670 --> 00:42:14,720
i actually interviewed the people in the

1302
00:42:18,390 --> 00:42:15,680
show but

1303
00:42:19,670 --> 00:42:18,400
uh but i didn't follow that for very

1304
00:42:22,309 --> 00:42:19,680
long only because uh

1305
00:42:22,710 --> 00:42:22,319
you know a good friend of mine uh really

1306
00:42:24,710 --> 00:42:22,720
knows

1307
00:42:27,109 --> 00:42:24,720
a lot about the scientific equipment it

1308
00:42:29,349 --> 00:42:27,119
was saying you know

1309
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:29,359
the things that they were using on site

1310
00:42:34,069 --> 00:42:30,960
did not make sense

1311
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:34,079
you know it was um but anyway so i kind

1312
00:42:37,270 --> 00:42:35,760
of stopped watching that but i don't

1313
00:42:39,430 --> 00:42:37,280
i don't know how that ever turned out it

1314
00:42:40,950 --> 00:42:39,440
was supposed to be uh crazy things

1315
00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:40,960
happening during the season which i

1316
00:42:44,390 --> 00:42:42,240
never saw

1317
00:42:46,230 --> 00:42:44,400
right but it's still a very very

1318
00:42:49,589 --> 00:42:46,240
interesting place

1319
00:42:52,230 --> 00:42:49,599
and uh you know especially um

1320
00:42:53,430 --> 00:42:52,240
all the the variety and just makes you

1321
00:42:55,990 --> 00:42:53,440
wonder

1322
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:56,000
why we have places in this world that

1323
00:43:00,309 --> 00:42:56,960
are like that

1324
00:43:02,230 --> 00:43:00,319
it's not the only one right and

1325
00:43:04,069 --> 00:43:02,240
you know again we come down not just to

1326
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:04,079
structured ufos but

1327
00:43:07,589 --> 00:43:07,040
but these other kinds of odd more what

1328
00:43:09,349 --> 00:43:07,599
um

1329
00:43:11,430 --> 00:43:09,359
strange animals and things like that at

1330
00:43:12,870 --> 00:43:11,440
the property just odd events happening

1331
00:43:15,510 --> 00:43:12,880
it becomes more of a question where you

1332
00:43:17,190 --> 00:43:15,520
want to ask is the

1333
00:43:19,670 --> 00:43:17,200
you know this again goes back to the old

1334
00:43:21,190 --> 00:43:19,680
john keel and jock valley idea that ufos

1335
00:43:24,309 --> 00:43:21,200
might be more paranormal than

1336
00:43:25,750 --> 00:43:24,319
than than explainable by kind of common

1337
00:43:28,710 --> 00:43:25,760
science i don't know that that

1338
00:43:29,190 --> 00:43:28,720
it's tempting but maybe dangerous you to

1339
00:43:31,990 --> 00:43:29,200
hold

1340
00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:32,000
right but it does seem to be that these

1341
00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:32,800
kinds of things

1342
00:43:35,910 --> 00:43:35,200
go together in many instances right and

1343
00:43:37,670 --> 00:43:35,920
that's that's

1344
00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:37,680
one it would be interesting to see what

1345
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:39,599
what ever actually came out of that in

1346
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:41,040
terms of measured

1347
00:43:44,309 --> 00:43:43,200
um changes and things like that but i

1348
00:43:46,470 --> 00:43:44,319
don't think a lot of that's been made

1349
00:43:50,069 --> 00:43:46,480
public as of yet so

1350
00:43:52,630 --> 00:43:50,079
yeah yeah um when someone has

1351
00:43:54,309 --> 00:43:52,640
like does it matter you know in your in

1352
00:43:55,270 --> 00:43:54,319
your in your thoughts and what you're

1353
00:43:56,790 --> 00:43:55,280
looking into

1354
00:43:59,670 --> 00:43:56,800
when it comes to this topic does it

1355
00:44:01,670 --> 00:43:59,680
matter if someone is a young child

1356
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:01,680
and has something happened and and i'd

1357
00:44:04,630 --> 00:44:03,040
like to talk to you a little bit

1358
00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:04,640
about these people that are claiming

1359
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:06,400
they're having you know abduction

1360
00:44:10,470 --> 00:44:07,520
experiences but

1361
00:44:12,069 --> 00:44:10,480
for right now just say there's a family

1362
00:44:15,510 --> 00:44:12,079
and the family's driving along

1363
00:44:17,910 --> 00:44:15,520
a highway and all of a sudden this ufo

1364
00:44:19,270 --> 00:44:17,920
you know goes over their car stops over

1365
00:44:20,470 --> 00:44:19,280
their car or whatever and they all

1366
00:44:22,870 --> 00:44:20,480
experience

1367
00:44:23,510 --> 00:44:22,880
this and they're very very scared does

1368
00:44:26,470 --> 00:44:23,520
it affect

1369
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:26,480
um some of the different age levels

1370
00:44:32,470 --> 00:44:30,790
i don't think there's been a lot on that

1371
00:44:34,870 --> 00:44:32,480
yet i think it i would

1372
00:44:36,069 --> 00:44:34,880
assume so though you know that happening

1373
00:44:36,950 --> 00:44:36,079
at different points in life i would

1374
00:44:38,630 --> 00:44:36,960
assume would have

1375
00:44:39,750 --> 00:44:38,640
different long lasting consequences i

1376
00:44:41,670 --> 00:44:39,760
think that's something that we should

1377
00:44:44,069 --> 00:44:41,680
look at a little more but

1378
00:44:45,829 --> 00:44:44,079
i do think it's interesting that we see

1379
00:44:47,670 --> 00:44:45,839
sometimes that people kind of adopt the

1380
00:44:49,750 --> 00:44:47,680
story of the family i noticed this in a

1381
00:44:52,150 --> 00:44:49,760
few cases that i've seen where

1382
00:44:53,430 --> 00:44:52,160
even when the the younger uh witness

1383
00:44:55,190 --> 00:44:53,440
might not fully remember

1384
00:44:56,630 --> 00:44:55,200
the incident they they kind of rely on

1385
00:44:57,589 --> 00:44:56,640
that narrative that was shared by the

1386
00:45:00,710 --> 00:44:57,599
family

1387
00:45:02,950 --> 00:45:00,720
um specifically i wanna

1388
00:45:04,710 --> 00:45:02,960
brings to mind the cash and landrum case

1389
00:45:07,750 --> 00:45:04,720
no this is not a discount that

1390
00:45:09,829 --> 00:45:07,760
but but uh was it kobe kobe colby yeah

1391
00:45:10,950 --> 00:45:09,839
younger yeah he when he reported i think

1392
00:45:11,990 --> 00:45:10,960
he was on with you actually when he

1393
00:45:15,030 --> 00:45:12,000
reported uh

1394
00:45:17,349 --> 00:45:15,040
what wow yeah that was

1395
00:45:19,349 --> 00:45:17,359
and he reported mainly what what the the

1396
00:45:20,630 --> 00:45:19,359
older members of the families i i sound

1397
00:45:22,470 --> 00:45:20,640
it sounded to me more like he was

1398
00:45:24,390 --> 00:45:22,480
expressing the story of what happened

1399
00:45:26,550 --> 00:45:24,400
than his own recollection

1400
00:45:28,470 --> 00:45:26,560
and i don't mean that in a dis you know

1401
00:45:30,230 --> 00:45:28,480
it's an insulting thing but as a young

1402
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:30,240
child maybe you adopt a narrative more

1403
00:45:32,710 --> 00:45:30,960
than

1404
00:45:34,710 --> 00:45:32,720
uh the actual recollection yeah i mean

1405
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:34,720
you can remember bits and pieces like he

1406
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:35,680
remembers

1407
00:45:39,190 --> 00:45:37,680
for instance being under the dash and

1408
00:45:41,670 --> 00:45:39,200
how hot it was and

1409
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:41,680
you know all that and you know and that

1410
00:45:45,910 --> 00:45:43,040
he was terrified

1411
00:45:47,589 --> 00:45:45,920
certainly but when you're i think i want

1412
00:45:49,030 --> 00:45:47,599
to say he was like seven years old or

1413
00:45:50,390 --> 00:45:49,040
something like that i can't remember for

1414
00:45:53,430 --> 00:45:50,400
sure very young i know

1415
00:45:54,470 --> 00:45:53,440
but uh at that age you know i mean

1416
00:45:56,470 --> 00:45:54,480
of course you're gonna remember

1417
00:45:58,230 --> 00:45:56,480
something really traumatic

1418
00:45:59,910 --> 00:45:58,240
like that but i mean you only remember

1419
00:46:00,950 --> 00:45:59,920
bits and pieces like it was a dream

1420
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:00,960
normally

1421
00:46:06,550 --> 00:46:04,720
you know um right and again becomes a

1422
00:46:08,069 --> 00:46:06,560
an issue with human memory being

1423
00:46:11,270 --> 00:46:08,079
fallible and being constructive

1424
00:46:13,750 --> 00:46:11,280
in nature it's just natural for us to to

1425
00:46:15,670 --> 00:46:13,760
when we recount an experience in our

1426
00:46:17,349 --> 00:46:15,680
lives to to utilize a kind of a

1427
00:46:18,790 --> 00:46:17,359
narrative quality we fill in gaps so

1428
00:46:19,990 --> 00:46:18,800
maybe we don't even realize sometimes

1429
00:46:21,270 --> 00:46:20,000
that we we fill in or we make

1430
00:46:22,950 --> 00:46:21,280
assumptions that we

1431
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:22,960
we uh we don't even you know know that

1432
00:46:26,710 --> 00:46:24,400
we do um

1433
00:46:28,069 --> 00:46:26,720
again that's not and this kind of goes

1434
00:46:30,550 --> 00:46:28,079
back to a bigger point that i want to

1435
00:46:32,710 --> 00:46:30,560
make that ufos and reporting of ufos

1436
00:46:34,950 --> 00:46:32,720
do not seem in any way to be associated

1437
00:46:37,270 --> 00:46:34,960
with psychopathology in other words

1438
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:37,280
this kind of common claim that was

1439
00:46:39,910 --> 00:46:38,160
prevalent

1440
00:46:42,069 --> 00:46:39,920
in you know that ufos are related to

1441
00:46:44,069 --> 00:46:42,079
crazy people right does not in any way

1442
00:46:46,710 --> 00:46:44,079
seem to be worn out by any kind of

1443
00:46:49,829 --> 00:46:46,720
evidence even looking at the literature

1444
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:49,839
um you know

1445
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:51,520
there's an interview with a guy who ran

1446
00:46:55,349 --> 00:46:53,280
a major um

1447
00:46:56,550 --> 00:46:55,359
psychology clinic in an urban setting

1448
00:46:57,349 --> 00:46:56,560
you know where you'd see he saw

1449
00:46:58,710 --> 00:46:57,359
literally 30

1450
00:47:00,550 --> 00:46:58,720
000 patients i think over the years not

1451
00:47:02,550 --> 00:47:00,560
one study he said he ever

1452
00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:02,560
had a case of it involving some kind of

1453
00:47:05,270 --> 00:47:03,680
ufo claim

1454
00:47:06,790 --> 00:47:05,280
so i just want you know that's anecdotal

1455
00:47:09,430 --> 00:47:06,800
of course but interesting that

1456
00:47:09,990 --> 00:47:09,440
really that i'd never seen you know a

1457
00:47:12,230 --> 00:47:10,000
case that

1458
00:47:13,910 --> 00:47:12,240
exemplifies this idea that people are

1459
00:47:15,430 --> 00:47:13,920
reporting ufos because they're in some

1460
00:47:18,390 --> 00:47:15,440
way delusional or

1461
00:47:20,069 --> 00:47:18,400
hallucinating or anything like that so

1462
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:20,079
um and maybe that goes back to the

1463
00:47:23,670 --> 00:47:21,520
robertson panel with their

1464
00:47:25,430 --> 00:47:23,680
you know how to get rid of this problem

1465
00:47:27,510 --> 00:47:25,440
let's just say people are

1466
00:47:29,109 --> 00:47:27,520
hallucinating or misinterpreting or i'm

1467
00:47:32,230 --> 00:47:29,119
sorry go ahead yeah

1468
00:47:35,270 --> 00:47:32,240
yeah the 19th for those new the 1953

1469
00:47:37,589 --> 00:47:35,280
uh robertson panel basically was put in

1470
00:47:40,150 --> 00:47:37,599
place after the 1952

1471
00:47:41,190 --> 00:47:40,160
such an active year in the ufo uh

1472
00:47:42,950 --> 00:47:41,200
sightings

1473
00:47:44,230 --> 00:47:42,960
that they were trying to tamp down all

1474
00:47:45,829 --> 00:47:44,240
the hysteria

1475
00:47:47,750 --> 00:47:45,839
and that's what the robertson panel was

1476
00:47:50,470 --> 00:47:47,760
about basically

1477
00:47:52,630 --> 00:47:50,480
and from a i'm sorry i didn't mean to

1478
00:47:53,990 --> 00:47:52,640
jump oh no

1479
00:47:56,150 --> 00:47:54,000
you know we can say well hey this is

1480
00:47:57,750 --> 00:47:56,160
obviously uh um

1481
00:47:59,190 --> 00:47:57,760
we could take a conspiratorial approach

1482
00:48:01,510 --> 00:47:59,200
to that but when you look at the impact

1483
00:48:03,349 --> 00:48:01,520
that those 52 sightings had on

1484
00:48:04,790 --> 00:48:03,359
communications abilities in the country

1485
00:48:05,750 --> 00:48:04,800
people being able to use the phone line

1486
00:48:07,829 --> 00:48:05,760
to call the pentagon

1487
00:48:09,829 --> 00:48:07,839
they you know these these the reports

1488
00:48:11,829 --> 00:48:09,839
were that these the the 52 wave kind of

1489
00:48:13,430 --> 00:48:11,839
crashed the telecommunications lines in

1490
00:48:15,109 --> 00:48:13,440
washington so

1491
00:48:16,470 --> 00:48:15,119
regardless of what these objects were

1492
00:48:19,030 --> 00:48:16,480
just getting people to stop calling

1493
00:48:21,109 --> 00:48:19,040
about them right was kind of a goal so

1494
00:48:22,790 --> 00:48:21,119
that's right we have a question from

1495
00:48:26,390 --> 00:48:22,800
over on facebook

1496
00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:26,400
from abigail do you think a lot may be

1497
00:48:30,309 --> 00:48:28,960
psychological the brain trying to make

1498
00:48:32,549 --> 00:48:30,319
itself

1499
00:48:33,430 --> 00:48:32,559
uh make sense of what they are seeing

1500
00:48:35,589 --> 00:48:33,440
and feeling

1501
00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:35,599
for the wrong and fearing i think

1502
00:48:39,750 --> 00:48:38,079
fearing for their own sanity

1503
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:39,760
sure i think that's one way to to think

1504
00:48:43,589 --> 00:48:41,280
about it right i mean if

1505
00:48:45,270 --> 00:48:43,599
if these experiences are as unusual as

1506
00:48:48,470 --> 00:48:45,280
people sometimes are able to

1507
00:48:50,470 --> 00:48:48,480
to to describe um

1508
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:50,480
we have to just to keep our own sanity

1509
00:48:53,589 --> 00:48:52,000
and pose a narrative on what it was that

1510
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:53,599
happened to us right we have to have a

1511
00:48:55,670 --> 00:48:55,200
story and i've noticed this in some of

1512
00:48:58,630 --> 00:48:55,680
the

1513
00:48:59,990 --> 00:48:58,640
mentioned earlier maybe that was before

1514
00:49:02,150 --> 00:49:00,000
we were on the air that

1515
00:49:03,349 --> 00:49:02,160
you see people describing to the best of

1516
00:49:05,190 --> 00:49:03,359
their ability what happened to them and

1517
00:49:06,870 --> 00:49:05,200
sometimes they just lack the words to do

1518
00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:06,880
so you know being able to describe one

1519
00:49:10,870 --> 00:49:08,559
of the witnesses that was in that

1520
00:49:11,670 --> 00:49:10,880
program basically described light and

1521
00:49:14,150 --> 00:49:11,680
that was

1522
00:49:14,790 --> 00:49:14,160
as much detail as she could could get to

1523
00:49:16,390 --> 00:49:14,800
you know it

1524
00:49:18,630 --> 00:49:16,400
there does seem to be an ineffable

1525
00:49:20,950 --> 00:49:18,640
quality of many of these experiences

1526
00:49:24,150 --> 00:49:20,960
which is hard for people to convey

1527
00:49:25,190 --> 00:49:24,160
yeah yeah um i know exactly who you're

1528
00:49:25,589 --> 00:49:25,200
talking about you were talking about

1529
00:49:28,549 --> 00:49:25,599
jane

1530
00:49:29,430 --> 00:49:28,559
the older woman who i thought um i

1531
00:49:32,870 --> 00:49:29,440
thought

1532
00:49:35,829 --> 00:49:32,880
show was very credible

1533
00:49:36,150 --> 00:49:35,839
you know i mean right i was uh that was

1534
00:49:39,430 --> 00:49:36,160
an

1535
00:49:41,589 --> 00:49:39,440
that so far

1536
00:49:42,710 --> 00:49:41,599
if you can get a hold of it um it's on

1537
00:49:45,349 --> 00:49:42,720
netflix

1538
00:49:46,069 --> 00:49:45,359
unsolved mysteries at episode 5 um the

1539
00:49:48,150 --> 00:49:46,079
latest uh

1540
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:48,160
version of that which is really great

1541
00:49:53,030 --> 00:49:50,319
and uh i might have one more witness

1542
00:49:53,829 --> 00:49:53,040
from that show um on this i'm trying to

1543
00:49:55,829 --> 00:49:53,839
get a hold of

1544
00:49:58,069 --> 00:49:55,839
one more witness that was uh involved in

1545
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:58,079
that because i just think uh

1546
00:50:01,109 --> 00:49:59,839
you know i always knew that as the tom

1547
00:50:02,950 --> 00:50:01,119
reed case

1548
00:50:04,230 --> 00:50:02,960
the reed family case i had no idea there

1549
00:50:06,790 --> 00:50:04,240
were other witnesses

1550
00:50:07,430 --> 00:50:06,800
until now there's another example of a

1551
00:50:09,190 --> 00:50:07,440
case where

1552
00:50:11,589 --> 00:50:09,200
many of the people who involved their

1553
00:50:13,430 --> 00:50:11,599
lives were changed dramatically i mean

1554
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:13,440
if you saw the unsolved mysteries

1555
00:50:15,990 --> 00:50:14,880
episode you could see they i think they

1556
00:50:18,470 --> 00:50:16,000
spent some time in that

1557
00:50:20,390 --> 00:50:18,480
unless i'm thinking of a different docu

1558
00:50:21,349 --> 00:50:20,400
of some of the changes you know the

1559
00:50:23,109 --> 00:50:21,359
family went through

1560
00:50:24,470 --> 00:50:23,119
based on reporting that experience

1561
00:50:26,549 --> 00:50:24,480
having that experience

1562
00:50:27,589 --> 00:50:26,559
yes really a good watch that was

1563
00:50:29,990 --> 00:50:27,599
actually the the

1564
00:50:31,270 --> 00:50:30,000
reed family just the fact that they were

1565
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:31,280
you know owned a restaurant in the

1566
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:32,559
middle of the town

1567
00:50:37,430 --> 00:50:35,599
and uh she got tired of of talking about

1568
00:50:39,990 --> 00:50:37,440
it or people teasing her

1569
00:50:40,790 --> 00:50:40,000
um some guy jumped up on a table and you

1570
00:50:42,309 --> 00:50:40,800
know was

1571
00:50:44,069 --> 00:50:42,319
teasing her you know the little green

1572
00:50:47,829 --> 00:50:44,079
men or something so

1573
00:50:50,950 --> 00:50:47,839
and actually tom reed's mother is very

1574
00:50:52,470 --> 00:50:50,960
uh very credible um i've heard her talk

1575
00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:52,480
a few different times

1576
00:50:55,589 --> 00:50:54,240
but i saw her on an episode of uh

1577
00:50:57,670 --> 00:50:55,599
there's a youtube show called the

1578
00:50:57,990 --> 00:50:57,680
behavioral panel i i watch every one of

1579
00:50:59,589 --> 00:50:58,000
those

1580
00:51:01,109 --> 00:50:59,599
do you okay yeah they're gonna be on

1581
00:51:03,190 --> 00:51:01,119
this show by the way um

1582
00:51:04,710 --> 00:51:03,200
how are they i just i just uh was in

1583
00:51:05,990 --> 00:51:04,720
correspondence with them last week so

1584
00:51:08,470 --> 00:51:06,000
that's great to hear i was hoping they

1585
00:51:10,549 --> 00:51:08,480
were gonna do more

1586
00:51:12,710 --> 00:51:10,559
so scott uh i've been in touch with him

1587
00:51:14,630 --> 00:51:12,720
and i just wrote him tonight like

1588
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:14,640
please you you guys get together every

1589
00:51:17,510 --> 00:51:16,000
tuesday night please uh

1590
00:51:19,829 --> 00:51:17,520
you know please let me know when you can

1591
00:51:20,390 --> 00:51:19,839
be on uh make your decision tonight

1592
00:51:22,069 --> 00:51:20,400
because they

1593
00:51:24,549 --> 00:51:22,079
they were gonna be on and then one of

1594
00:51:26,790 --> 00:51:24,559
them had to go somewhere so

1595
00:51:28,150 --> 00:51:26,800
the whole thing was dropped and uh just

1596
00:51:31,510 --> 00:51:28,160
waiting for them to come back

1597
00:51:32,870 --> 00:51:31,520
yeah i love what they do

1598
00:51:34,630 --> 00:51:32,880
and i think there's a lot we can learn

1599
00:51:36,390 --> 00:51:34,640
there from from how they how they look

1600
00:51:37,430 --> 00:51:36,400
at witnesses and

1601
00:51:39,109 --> 00:51:37,440
i guess you could call statement

1602
00:51:40,230 --> 00:51:39,119
analysis although that's kind of a term

1603
00:51:41,910 --> 00:51:40,240
that's been

1604
00:51:43,829 --> 00:51:41,920
inappropriately used you know kind of

1605
00:51:44,470 --> 00:51:43,839
there are ways in psychology we can we

1606
00:51:46,950 --> 00:51:44,480
can

1607
00:51:47,910 --> 00:51:46,960
um kind of approach approach witnesses

1608
00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:47,920
and and

1609
00:51:50,870 --> 00:51:49,359
they do a good job i think of what we've

1610
00:51:52,230 --> 00:51:50,880
seen from them in terms of you know

1611
00:51:53,670 --> 00:51:52,240
especially their hey i don't want to say

1612
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:53,680
they're human lie detectors but those

1613
00:51:56,309 --> 00:51:54,720
are the guys that are the most

1614
00:51:57,270 --> 00:51:56,319
recognized body language experts in the

1615
00:52:00,309 --> 00:51:57,280
world so

1616
00:52:04,150 --> 00:52:00,319
yeah yeah and um i do encourage

1617
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:04,160
people to check out the one on bob lazar

1618
00:52:07,510 --> 00:52:05,359
i was just thinking about whether i

1619
00:52:10,390 --> 00:52:07,520
should bring that up or not right

1620
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:10,400
well i i i i'm going to talk to them

1621
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:11,599
about that when they're on

1622
00:52:15,030 --> 00:52:14,400
but a lot of people don't enjoy when i

1623
00:52:17,670 --> 00:52:15,040
talk about

1624
00:52:18,710 --> 00:52:17,680
bob lazar on the show all right and

1625
00:52:22,309 --> 00:52:18,720
that's okay

1626
00:52:24,150 --> 00:52:22,319
um i think everyone can have uh

1627
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:24,160
you know their own opinion on on what

1628
00:52:28,710 --> 00:52:25,520
they think about that

1629
00:52:30,230 --> 00:52:28,720
but yeah so so um all right let's uh

1630
00:52:31,910 --> 00:52:30,240
let's see we just have uh

1631
00:52:33,910 --> 00:52:31,920
just three minutes until we go into

1632
00:52:37,270 --> 00:52:33,920
break but um i just

1633
00:52:40,470 --> 00:52:37,280
did want to um talk about the subject of

1634
00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:40,480
what people are talking as you know they

1635
00:52:45,990 --> 00:52:43,520
term it now as experiencers um

1636
00:52:47,430 --> 00:52:46,000
but as we had known for many years

1637
00:52:50,630 --> 00:52:47,440
called abductions

1638
00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:50,640
um that's such a wide range

1639
00:52:54,309 --> 00:52:52,400
phenomenon whatever it is in this

1640
00:52:55,910 --> 00:52:54,319
country not in every country but in this

1641
00:52:58,470 --> 00:52:55,920
country in particular

1642
00:53:00,549 --> 00:52:58,480
and uh i guess i'm gonna ask you first

1643
00:53:04,790 --> 00:53:00,559
of all what are your general thoughts on

1644
00:53:07,109 --> 00:53:04,800
on those um

1645
00:53:08,390 --> 00:53:07,119
very definitely i'll say i'm interested

1646
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:08,400
let's start there there's something

1647
00:53:10,549 --> 00:53:08,800
there

1648
00:53:12,390 --> 00:53:10,559
that's of interest whether you know what

1649
00:53:14,309 --> 00:53:12,400
the explanation is what the

1650
00:53:16,390 --> 00:53:14,319
literal explanation eventually turns out

1651
00:53:18,230 --> 00:53:16,400
to be one way or another it's still

1652
00:53:19,910 --> 00:53:18,240
intriguing that people are reporting

1653
00:53:22,470 --> 00:53:19,920
these kinds of experiences

1654
00:53:23,910 --> 00:53:22,480
um i would say that i look at abductions

1655
00:53:26,470 --> 00:53:23,920
kind of similarly to

1656
00:53:27,589 --> 00:53:26,480
something maybe analogous that i'm more

1657
00:53:29,829 --> 00:53:27,599
fascinated by

1658
00:53:31,430 --> 00:53:29,839
uh kind of the look at south america in

1659
00:53:34,069 --> 00:53:31,440
the 50s and 60s they had

1660
00:53:35,670 --> 00:53:34,079
cases involving hairy dwarfs right being

1661
00:53:38,150 --> 00:53:35,680
kidnapped by hairy uh

1662
00:53:39,750 --> 00:53:38,160
berry dwarves that was a common it

1663
00:53:41,349 --> 00:53:39,760
changed the differences between

1664
00:53:42,790 --> 00:53:41,359
between cultures i think are interesting

1665
00:53:45,589 --> 00:53:42,800
we see a little bit of that

1666
00:53:47,510 --> 00:53:45,599
uh ufo abduction primarily at least

1667
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:47,520
discussed these days as a western

1668
00:53:52,309 --> 00:53:49,920
phenomenon that emerged kind of in the

1669
00:53:53,910 --> 00:53:52,319
90s and to some degree people have these

1670
00:53:55,670 --> 00:53:53,920
days i think plus at least less

1671
00:53:57,990 --> 00:53:55,680
emphasis or interest than maybe i don't

1672
00:54:00,470 --> 00:53:58,000
i'm not sure but they

1673
00:54:02,470 --> 00:54:00,480
they do still seem to reflect this kind

1674
00:54:04,390 --> 00:54:02,480
of encounter with the extraordinary

1675
00:54:05,510 --> 00:54:04,400
which we again we have stories about

1676
00:54:08,549 --> 00:54:05,520
right we have

1677
00:54:10,870 --> 00:54:08,559
um we we have patterns in

1678
00:54:12,470 --> 00:54:10,880
our in our stories of how we deal with

1679
00:54:14,390 --> 00:54:12,480
interacting with the unknown right i

1680
00:54:15,829 --> 00:54:14,400
mean we have forms of narrative and

1681
00:54:17,829 --> 00:54:15,839
again going back to what miller talked

1682
00:54:19,990 --> 00:54:17,839
about you know the way that people

1683
00:54:21,589 --> 00:54:20,000
have these kind of initiatory journeys

1684
00:54:23,270 --> 00:54:21,599
uh one thing that sticks out to me i'll

1685
00:54:25,030 --> 00:54:23,280
just mention briefly in his work he

1686
00:54:26,630 --> 00:54:25,040
he noticed that uh specifically in

1687
00:54:29,109 --> 00:54:26,640
regards to abductees

1688
00:54:30,309 --> 00:54:29,119
most of the time i think maybe in all

1689
00:54:32,069 --> 00:54:30,319
the cases he looked at

1690
00:54:34,790 --> 00:54:32,079
they did not people did not actually

1691
00:54:37,109 --> 00:54:34,800
recall going through the doorway

1692
00:54:38,789 --> 00:54:37,119
of the craft they remember being inside

1693
00:54:39,430 --> 00:54:38,799
right after being in their room for

1694
00:54:41,030 --> 00:54:39,440
example

1695
00:54:42,549 --> 00:54:41,040
but they don't remember crossing the

1696
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:42,559
threshold

1697
00:54:48,549 --> 00:54:46,000
he called this doorway amnesia which

1698
00:54:50,950 --> 00:54:48,559
he maps on analogously to some of the

1699
00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:50,960
kind of more typical structures of

1700
00:54:54,390 --> 00:54:52,640
experiences involving shamanic

1701
00:54:55,430 --> 00:54:54,400
initiation right have kind of similar

1702
00:54:56,710 --> 00:54:55,440
patterns so

1703
00:54:58,549 --> 00:54:56,720
just something of note there that i

1704
00:55:00,630 --> 00:54:58,559
think is kind of interesting

1705
00:55:02,710 --> 00:55:00,640
yeah very interesting all right when we

1706
00:55:03,910 --> 00:55:02,720
come back we'll we'll continue on about

1707
00:55:06,069 --> 00:55:03,920
the abductions we're

1708
00:55:07,270 --> 00:55:06,079
ready to go into break now for those of

1709
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:07,280
you on youtube

1710
00:55:10,710 --> 00:55:09,760
i have a little video clip that's going

1711
00:55:13,030 --> 00:55:10,720
to play for

1712
00:55:22,190 --> 00:55:13,040
a little bit we'll be right back right

1713
00:57:30,069 --> 00:55:43,010
[Music]

1714
00:57:37,109 --> 00:57:33,109
wow for uh those of you

1715
00:57:39,910 --> 00:57:37,119
that are uh in youtube um i just

1716
00:57:41,510 --> 00:57:39,920
had actually never known that the

1717
00:57:42,069 --> 00:57:41,520
national archives would pay any

1718
00:57:44,150 --> 00:57:42,079
attention

1719
00:57:45,190 --> 00:57:44,160
to the ufo topic so i thought that video

1720
00:57:47,589 --> 00:57:45,200
was

1721
00:57:49,750 --> 00:57:47,599
pretty interesting with the documents as

1722
00:57:52,309 --> 00:57:49,760
you can see if you watched it the

1723
00:57:53,670 --> 00:57:52,319
exhibition of those documents ended

1724
00:57:56,549 --> 00:57:53,680
january 20th

1725
00:57:57,109 --> 00:57:56,559
last year but anyway i thought that was

1726
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:57,119
such an

1727
00:58:03,430 --> 00:58:00,319
interesting clip and let's see

1728
00:58:05,349 --> 00:58:03,440
um i'm going to keep an eye on what's

1729
00:58:08,470 --> 00:58:05,359
going on here but i'll bring you back in

1730
00:58:10,309 --> 00:58:08,480
um timothy we're actually on break

1731
00:58:11,829 --> 00:58:10,319
but we're during we're still live on

1732
00:58:15,109 --> 00:58:11,839
youtube so

1733
00:58:15,829 --> 00:58:15,119
i wanted to ask you um let me yank this

1734
00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:15,839
down

1735
00:58:19,589 --> 00:58:18,160
um actually martin you may want to ask

1736
00:58:20,710 --> 00:58:19,599
them that him that when we come back

1737
00:58:22,549 --> 00:58:20,720
because we're about to come back in

1738
00:58:25,750 --> 00:58:22,559
about 10 seconds

1739
00:58:26,950 --> 00:58:25,760
perfect spill standby yeah i think the

1740
00:58:29,990 --> 00:58:26,960
second time i've done this

1741
00:58:33,109 --> 00:58:30,000
yeah in three two one

1742
00:58:36,150 --> 00:58:33,119
go all right welcome back to the show

1743
00:58:39,349 --> 00:58:36,160
my guest tonight is uh tim

1744
00:58:41,430 --> 00:58:39,359
or timothy uh brigham uh phd

1745
00:58:42,549 --> 00:58:41,440
and uh we were talking before we went

1746
00:58:45,589 --> 00:58:42,559
into break

1747
00:58:46,950 --> 00:58:45,599
about um the abduction abduction

1748
00:58:49,349 --> 00:58:46,960
phenomenon and

1749
00:58:50,309 --> 00:58:49,359
let's let's talk about there's some

1750
00:58:53,750 --> 00:58:50,319
major

1751
00:58:55,829 --> 00:58:53,760
earlier the allagash

1752
00:58:56,870 --> 00:58:55,839
i mean yeah the allagash incident

1753
00:58:59,109 --> 00:58:56,880
there's also the

1754
00:59:00,870 --> 00:58:59,119
pascagoula incident which is a

1755
00:59:04,309 --> 00:59:00,880
fascinating case

1756
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:04,319
um that one in particular really changed

1757
00:59:07,430 --> 00:59:06,480
um calvin parker's life you know i

1758
00:59:10,950 --> 00:59:07,440
talked to him

1759
00:59:14,150 --> 00:59:10,960
uh actually uh a number of times uh

1760
00:59:16,069 --> 00:59:14,160
probably uh once or twice a month but it

1761
00:59:18,789 --> 00:59:16,079
really has changed his life

1762
00:59:19,990 --> 00:59:18,799
in particular right and you you brought

1763
00:59:21,430 --> 00:59:20,000
up allagash and that

1764
00:59:23,109 --> 00:59:21,440
made it i made a note here when you did

1765
00:59:25,190 --> 00:59:23,119
that that reminds me that we have seen

1766
00:59:27,349 --> 00:59:25,200
in the the literature of

1767
00:59:28,789 --> 00:59:27,359
related to the psychology of of ufo

1768
00:59:31,510 --> 00:59:28,799
reporting that that artists

1769
00:59:33,270 --> 00:59:31,520
are over represented you probably know

1770
00:59:36,150 --> 00:59:33,280
this kind of anecdotally

1771
00:59:38,230 --> 00:59:36,160
ranging from four of 13 and some samples

1772
00:59:39,190 --> 00:59:38,240
to 100 percent to at least three

1773
00:59:41,190 --> 00:59:39,200
quarters

1774
00:59:43,190 --> 00:59:41,200
um there does seem to be an over

1775
00:59:44,470 --> 00:59:43,200
abundance of people who have artistic

1776
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:44,480
talent

1777
00:59:48,549 --> 00:59:47,280
in and of those reporting ufos which is

1778
00:59:51,910 --> 00:59:48,559
an interesting

1779
00:59:53,829 --> 00:59:51,920
that's a chicken or the egg

1780
00:59:55,270 --> 00:59:53,839
kind of phenomenon we we come to that

1781
00:59:57,190 --> 00:59:55,280
question of course but

1782
00:59:58,549 --> 00:59:57,200
um definitely more so than you would

1783
01:00:00,069 --> 00:59:58,559
expect just if it was a random

1784
01:00:01,349 --> 01:00:00,079
distribution of people reporting

1785
01:00:04,470 --> 01:00:01,359
sightings

1786
01:00:06,630 --> 01:00:04,480
i had no idea i had never heard that

1787
01:00:08,870 --> 01:00:06,640
before but really hey you're not okay no

1788
01:00:10,309 --> 01:00:08,880
no and i'm a painter too i mean not that

1789
01:00:12,870 --> 01:00:10,319
that

1790
01:00:15,270 --> 01:00:12,880
you know but still i had never actually

1791
01:00:17,190 --> 01:00:15,280
known that but now that i think about it

1792
01:00:20,390 --> 01:00:17,200
um you know i think of peter robbins as

1793
01:00:23,430 --> 01:00:20,400
an artist so was um

1794
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:23,440
bud hopkins major artist

1795
01:00:28,230 --> 01:00:27,040
and you know emily trim is an artist

1796
01:00:29,750 --> 01:00:28,240
that uh

1797
01:00:31,990 --> 01:00:29,760
had and think about whitley whitley

1798
01:00:34,150 --> 01:00:32,000
strieber of course i mean maybe

1799
01:00:35,349 --> 01:00:34,160
the example you know at the top of the

1800
01:00:37,270 --> 01:00:35,359
heap um

1801
01:00:39,349 --> 01:00:37,280
right tom warner that was up on this

1802
01:00:41,430 --> 01:00:39,359
show wow

1803
01:00:42,870 --> 01:00:41,440
comes the question of you know is this

1804
01:00:44,870 --> 01:00:42,880
an effect or is this something that

1805
01:00:47,030 --> 01:00:44,880
predisposes people to be able to

1806
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:47,040
experience these these things

1807
01:00:50,549 --> 01:00:48,960
um and i don't know you know i think

1808
01:00:52,150 --> 01:00:50,559
that's where the research

1809
01:00:53,910 --> 01:00:52,160
you know should go for for in terms of

1810
01:00:56,390 --> 01:00:53,920
the human psychology what is it about

1811
01:00:57,430 --> 01:00:56,400
certain people that can experience these

1812
01:00:58,710 --> 01:00:57,440
things and and

1813
01:01:00,630 --> 01:00:58,720
what are the other characteristics they

1814
01:01:01,750 --> 01:01:00,640
might have i mentioned at the ufo

1815
01:01:03,510 --> 01:01:01,760
congress just

1816
01:01:05,430 --> 01:01:03,520
as an aside being in the elevator with

1817
01:01:07,030 --> 01:01:05,440
whitley strieber and his long purported

1818
01:01:08,470 --> 01:01:07,040
effect on electromagnetics and the

1819
01:01:09,829 --> 01:01:08,480
elevator actually stalling

1820
01:01:12,069 --> 01:01:09,839
of course that's a one-off you know i

1821
01:01:13,589 --> 01:01:12,079
can't claim that it's but whitley said

1822
01:01:15,270 --> 01:01:13,599
this happens all the time i'm around

1823
01:01:15,990 --> 01:01:15,280
elevators and tvs and light bulbs and

1824
01:01:18,150 --> 01:01:16,000
they go out

1825
01:01:20,150 --> 01:01:18,160
you know and and luckily we got the

1826
01:01:22,069 --> 01:01:20,160
elevator going again pretty quickly but

1827
01:01:25,190 --> 01:01:22,079
um you know you hear that commonly as

1828
01:01:26,630 --> 01:01:25,200
well so whether there's electromagnetic

1829
01:01:28,470 --> 01:01:26,640
obviously there's some kind of relation

1830
01:01:30,710 --> 01:01:28,480
to electromagnetics and

1831
01:01:31,670 --> 01:01:30,720
ufos as we've seen electromagnetic

1832
01:01:34,470 --> 01:01:31,680
effects on

1833
01:01:35,349 --> 01:01:34,480
on people and and uh you know cars and

1834
01:01:38,950 --> 01:01:35,359
other things as well

1835
01:01:41,750 --> 01:01:38,960
so yeah the stalling vehicles yeah

1836
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:41,760
uh yeah that is really fascinating i i

1837
01:01:45,430 --> 01:01:42,960
never even thought of that

1838
01:01:47,430 --> 01:01:45,440
angle at all um now i'm really going to

1839
01:01:49,829 --> 01:01:47,440
be thinking about it

1840
01:01:51,670 --> 01:01:49,839
i'll have to i think that we could see

1841
01:01:55,029 --> 01:01:51,680
you know organizations like mufon

1842
01:01:55,670 --> 01:01:55,039
that your or any any large organization

1843
01:01:59,029 --> 01:01:55,680
could

1844
01:02:00,230 --> 01:01:59,039
looking at some of the aspects about the

1845
01:02:01,990 --> 01:02:00,240
people doing the reporting

1846
01:02:04,069 --> 01:02:02,000
um greg bishop and i have even kind of

1847
01:02:05,589 --> 01:02:04,079
talked about you asking enough questions

1848
01:02:07,270 --> 01:02:05,599
you can probably find some things that

1849
01:02:08,870 --> 01:02:07,280
are extremely interesting you might not

1850
01:02:10,390 --> 01:02:08,880
even assume right i mean maybe it could

1851
01:02:11,990 --> 01:02:10,400
be something as simple as people's

1852
01:02:14,150 --> 01:02:12,000
favorite color is gray and they more

1853
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:14,160
often report or i said gray as a ufo

1854
01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:14,960
upon there not

1855
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:16,720
intentionally but right i mean what is

1856
01:02:19,430 --> 01:02:18,559
it are there characteristics between

1857
01:02:21,349 --> 01:02:19,440
people that

1858
01:02:22,950 --> 01:02:21,359
that make them more likely to report or

1859
01:02:23,910 --> 01:02:22,960
to have the experiences in the first

1860
01:02:25,589 --> 01:02:23,920
place

1861
01:02:26,789 --> 01:02:25,599
i think that that you know questions

1862
01:02:27,510 --> 01:02:26,799
about what is what has been the

1863
01:02:30,230 --> 01:02:27,520
long-term

1864
01:02:32,150 --> 01:02:30,240
impact on your life what was the

1865
01:02:34,069 --> 01:02:32,160
immediate psychological reaction you had

1866
01:02:35,750 --> 01:02:34,079
to the experience things like that those

1867
01:02:38,150 --> 01:02:35,760
those could be integrated into

1868
01:02:39,190 --> 01:02:38,160
questionnaires for ufo reporting and i

1869
01:02:41,910 --> 01:02:39,200
think they yield

1870
01:02:43,190 --> 01:02:41,920
some really good information well i will

1871
01:02:45,190 --> 01:02:43,200
tell you this that when i

1872
01:02:46,470 --> 01:02:45,200
i started painting late in life like i

1873
01:02:49,510 --> 01:02:46,480
was 42

1874
01:02:51,430 --> 01:02:49,520
but i will tell you that um since i

1875
01:02:53,029 --> 01:02:51,440
started painting that i started really

1876
01:02:54,470 --> 01:02:53,039
looking at things the way i never looked

1877
01:02:56,470 --> 01:02:54,480
at them before

1878
01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:56,480
you know and i don't know if that if

1879
01:03:01,190 --> 01:02:58,720
that's any part of it or not you know it

1880
01:03:02,950 --> 01:03:01,200
i mean well we're talking about you know

1881
01:03:03,589 --> 01:03:02,960
with some of these concepts being able

1882
01:03:06,789 --> 01:03:03,599
to

1883
01:03:08,710 --> 01:03:06,799
kind of both communicate and get

1884
01:03:11,109 --> 01:03:08,720
information that you might not otherwise

1885
01:03:11,990 --> 01:03:11,119
be able to right so this concept

1886
01:03:14,390 --> 01:03:12,000
that i like to go back to a

1887
01:03:16,630 --> 01:03:14,400
translationality of being able to allow

1888
01:03:18,069 --> 01:03:16,640
information through your consciousness

1889
01:03:19,029 --> 01:03:18,079
your unconscious into your conscious

1890
01:03:21,589 --> 01:03:19,039
however you want to

1891
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:21,599
kind of look at that that that does seem

1892
01:03:24,710 --> 01:03:22,720
to be associated

1893
01:03:26,230 --> 01:03:24,720
and in many cases with people who you

1894
01:03:28,789 --> 01:03:26,240
know with reporting

1895
01:03:30,870 --> 01:03:28,799
odd occurrences let's say paranormal or

1896
01:03:33,270 --> 01:03:30,880
anomalous however you want to determine

1897
01:03:34,309 --> 01:03:33,280
yeah now um you mentioned the different

1898
01:03:37,190 --> 01:03:34,319
levels

1899
01:03:37,750 --> 01:03:37,200
and so you would say that if someone is

1900
01:03:39,510 --> 01:03:37,760
it

1901
01:03:41,589 --> 01:03:39,520
thinks they're experiencing abductions

1902
01:03:44,549 --> 01:03:41,599
they would be on the intense

1903
01:03:46,230 --> 01:03:44,559
high end of it right this is just yeah

1904
01:03:47,990 --> 01:03:46,240
this has been a distinction that i've

1905
01:03:49,670 --> 01:03:48,000
seen in a couple of pieces of the of the

1906
01:03:51,670 --> 01:03:49,680
literature i think it's useful

1907
01:03:53,270 --> 01:03:51,680
um because of course not everybody who

1908
01:03:55,190 --> 01:03:53,280
has an experiences and recounts it is

1909
01:03:56,710 --> 01:03:55,200
going to fall into this is necessarily a

1910
01:03:59,270 --> 01:03:56,720
life-changing event like you

1911
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:59,280
mentioned your friend earlier but uh of

1912
01:04:02,470 --> 01:04:00,240
those that do

1913
01:04:04,549 --> 01:04:02,480
right there do seem to be similarity and

1914
01:04:06,870 --> 01:04:04,559
maybe that maybe that in itself is

1915
01:04:08,630 --> 01:04:06,880
is a factor right people who place more

1916
01:04:09,670 --> 01:04:08,640
importance maybe typically are people

1917
01:04:11,190 --> 01:04:09,680
who are artistic

1918
01:04:13,589 --> 01:04:11,200
it's hard to you know to really start

1919
01:04:13,990 --> 01:04:13,599
kind of creating those causal directions

1920
01:04:15,910 --> 01:04:14,000
but

1921
01:04:17,349 --> 01:04:15,920
there do seem to be correlations high

1922
01:04:19,510 --> 01:04:17,359
high in artistic ability

1923
01:04:21,750 --> 01:04:19,520
high likelihood of reporting something

1924
01:04:24,549 --> 01:04:21,760
like this right

1925
01:04:25,670 --> 01:04:24,559
interesting wow now i know that uh kathy

1926
01:04:28,789 --> 01:04:25,680
martin

1927
01:04:31,589 --> 01:04:28,799
did a um she's the niece of

1928
01:04:33,510 --> 01:04:31,599
of uh betty hill i don't know if you

1929
01:04:36,870 --> 01:04:33,520
know who kathy martin is but yeah i do

1930
01:04:39,750 --> 01:04:36,880
oh she did a um like

1931
01:04:41,670 --> 01:04:39,760
um a study with experiencers and

1932
01:04:43,109 --> 01:04:41,680
basically the commonalities

1933
01:04:45,910 --> 01:04:43,119
you know that was what she was looking

1934
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:45,920
for and she basically the questionnaire

1935
01:04:48,390 --> 01:04:46,559
was

1936
01:04:50,470 --> 01:04:48,400
kind of an open-ended questionnaire and

1937
01:04:52,069 --> 01:04:50,480
then people would fill in

1938
01:04:54,069 --> 01:04:52,079
and it's strange it doesn't matter where

1939
01:04:56,789 --> 01:04:54,079
they were from they had so many

1940
01:04:57,510 --> 01:04:56,799
related commonalities but i also i i

1941
01:04:59,510 --> 01:04:57,520
don't know

1942
01:05:01,589 --> 01:04:59,520
if that uh it would be interesting to

1943
01:05:03,990 --> 01:05:01,599
know um if she ever

1944
01:05:05,270 --> 01:05:04,000
talked about you know artistic abilities

1945
01:05:08,069 --> 01:05:05,280
and all right

1946
01:05:10,390 --> 01:05:08,079
and then there was a there was something

1947
01:05:11,589 --> 01:05:10,400
um i'm trying to remember what it was uh

1948
01:05:13,270 --> 01:05:11,599
oh negative blood

1949
01:05:15,029 --> 01:05:13,280
i think uh were a lot of people

1950
01:05:15,910 --> 01:05:15,039
reporting they were getting abductions

1951
01:05:18,789 --> 01:05:15,920
which is another

1952
01:05:20,069 --> 01:05:18,799
strange commonality i'm familiar i've

1953
01:05:22,710 --> 01:05:20,079
heard the i've heard the

1954
01:05:23,349 --> 01:05:22,720
the blood uh the blood thing i've never

1955
01:05:26,069 --> 01:05:23,359
i haven't

1956
01:05:28,230 --> 01:05:26,079
heard enough detail on on on that but

1957
01:05:29,430 --> 01:05:28,240
yes with the in again if we to return to

1958
01:05:30,870 --> 01:05:29,440
the kind of the psychological

1959
01:05:32,309 --> 01:05:30,880
characteristics maybe it's just

1960
01:05:33,190 --> 01:05:32,319
something as simple as people who are

1961
01:05:34,950 --> 01:05:33,200
artistic have

1962
01:05:36,710 --> 01:05:34,960
an easier time of integrating this

1963
01:05:38,870 --> 01:05:36,720
information in a way that they can

1964
01:05:40,390 --> 01:05:38,880
tell people about it i i don't know you

1965
01:05:42,710 --> 01:05:40,400
know it could be that just being prone

1966
01:05:44,789 --> 01:05:42,720
to having an artistic capacity makes it

1967
01:05:46,069 --> 01:05:44,799
more easy for you to verbalize the stuff

1968
01:05:47,910 --> 01:05:46,079
and tell the story i

1969
01:05:49,190 --> 01:05:47,920
you know difficult to say but those are

1970
01:05:51,430 --> 01:05:49,200
the i think if

1971
01:05:53,349 --> 01:05:51,440
if social science had kind of started

1972
01:05:55,190 --> 01:05:53,359
looking at these experiences like they

1973
01:05:56,789 --> 01:05:55,200
should have maybe 20 years ago we'd have

1974
01:05:57,910 --> 01:05:56,799
some of these answers but this kind of

1975
01:05:59,430 --> 01:05:57,920
whole

1976
01:06:00,789 --> 01:05:59,440
kind of disdain that well these are

1977
01:06:01,750 --> 01:06:00,799
people who are just crazy well that

1978
01:06:03,270 --> 01:06:01,760
doesn't

1979
01:06:04,789 --> 01:06:03,280
if we have people who are performing

1980
01:06:06,630 --> 01:06:04,799
these kinds of experiences whether they

1981
01:06:07,829 --> 01:06:06,640
be abductions or encounters with

1982
01:06:10,230 --> 01:06:07,839
entities or even just

1983
01:06:11,750 --> 01:06:10,240
you know discs in the sky of structured

1984
01:06:13,589 --> 01:06:11,760
craft in the sky

1985
01:06:15,109 --> 01:06:13,599
the explanation that they're psychotic

1986
01:06:17,430 --> 01:06:15,119
or delusional or

1987
01:06:18,950 --> 01:06:17,440
paranoid schizophrenic does not have

1988
01:06:20,789 --> 01:06:18,960
support so

1989
01:06:22,710 --> 01:06:20,799
there must be some there should be an

1990
01:06:24,150 --> 01:06:22,720
approach you know in psychology and then

1991
01:06:26,069 --> 01:06:24,160
the social sciences to try to explain

1992
01:06:27,670 --> 01:06:26,079
this just to kind of leave it hanging

1993
01:06:29,990 --> 01:06:27,680
out there as well

1994
01:06:31,670 --> 01:06:30,000
and i think the broadest explanation in

1995
01:06:33,510 --> 01:06:31,680
popular literature was

1996
01:06:35,029 --> 01:06:33,520
was when i mentioned at ufo congress

1997
01:06:37,109 --> 01:06:35,039
just this idea that well we live in a

1998
01:06:38,470 --> 01:06:37,119
space age kind of society and this is

1999
01:06:40,549 --> 01:06:38,480
just the way that people report their

2000
01:06:42,390 --> 01:06:40,559
traumatic experiences in a narrative

2001
01:06:45,670 --> 01:06:42,400
involving science and

2002
01:06:47,109 --> 01:06:45,680
and not very explanatory i i mean a nice

2003
01:06:47,670 --> 01:06:47,119
kind of philosophical approach i don't

2004
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:47,680
wanna

2005
01:06:51,109 --> 01:06:49,520
but but you know in terms of really

2006
01:06:53,430 --> 01:06:51,119
looking at the people who

2007
01:06:54,950 --> 01:06:53,440
who report these things and and and not

2008
01:06:55,270 --> 01:06:54,960
just kind of speculating about well

2009
01:06:57,910 --> 01:06:55,280
they're

2010
01:06:59,510 --> 01:06:57,920
probably just you know paranoid

2011
01:07:00,630 --> 01:06:59,520
schizophrenic when the evidence does not

2012
01:07:03,270 --> 01:07:00,640
show they are

2013
01:07:04,870 --> 01:07:03,280
um that's you know an area that human

2014
01:07:06,150 --> 01:07:04,880
psychology research really needs to dig

2015
01:07:09,190 --> 01:07:06,160
into i think

2016
01:07:10,549 --> 01:07:09,200
yeah and do you think is it just because

2017
01:07:11,990 --> 01:07:10,559
of

2018
01:07:14,150 --> 01:07:12,000
you know you you talked about the

2019
01:07:18,230 --> 01:07:14,160
robertson panel you know kind of

2020
01:07:20,309 --> 01:07:18,240
like the fringe idea of this

2021
01:07:22,230 --> 01:07:20,319
why um it's not taken seriously and

2022
01:07:24,870 --> 01:07:22,240
looked at more

2023
01:07:26,470 --> 01:07:24,880
i think so you know i think whatever the

2024
01:07:27,990 --> 01:07:26,480
reason there was initially set up

2025
01:07:30,789 --> 01:07:28,000
whether it just be a natural thing or

2026
01:07:31,910 --> 01:07:30,799
was a thing created that that ufos must

2027
01:07:34,710 --> 01:07:31,920
in some sense re

2028
01:07:36,230 --> 01:07:34,720
relate to abnormal human psychology and

2029
01:07:38,069 --> 01:07:36,240
must be the product of that

2030
01:07:39,430 --> 01:07:38,079
i think though especially you know with

2031
01:07:40,309 --> 01:07:39,440
the stuff with the navy in the last

2032
01:07:43,270 --> 01:07:40,319
couple of years

2033
01:07:45,109 --> 01:07:43,280
that basically even that you know people

2034
01:07:46,309 --> 01:07:45,119
in the the us navy are saying they don't

2035
01:07:49,029 --> 01:07:46,319
know what these things are

2036
01:07:49,349 --> 01:07:49,039
so to to just automatically assume that

2037
01:07:51,029 --> 01:07:49,359
the

2038
01:07:52,549 --> 01:07:51,039
pilots are delusional and that we should

2039
01:07:54,390 --> 01:07:52,559
write this off is not worthy of

2040
01:07:56,630 --> 01:07:54,400
investigation is completely

2041
01:07:58,150 --> 01:07:56,640
ludicrous i mean we have uh i think

2042
01:07:58,789 --> 01:07:58,160
that's kind of changed the attitude i

2043
01:08:01,190 --> 01:07:58,799
looked at a

2044
01:08:02,870 --> 01:08:01,200
an uh professor of mine from grad school

2045
01:08:04,470 --> 01:08:02,880
just this morning on joe rogan he was

2046
01:08:06,390 --> 01:08:04,480
talking about ufos hey

2047
01:08:08,069 --> 01:08:06,400
you know when i in grad school nobody

2048
01:08:09,190 --> 01:08:08,079
wanted to research ufos when i wanted to

2049
01:08:11,270 --> 01:08:09,200
research ufos

2050
01:08:12,870 --> 01:08:11,280
but not specifically or anybody but you

2051
01:08:13,829 --> 01:08:12,880
know that that's becoming an area that

2052
01:08:17,829 --> 01:08:13,839
people are

2053
01:08:19,430 --> 01:08:17,839
openly kind of looking at now so yeah

2054
01:08:21,430 --> 01:08:19,440
i was funny i was telling more support

2055
01:08:24,229 --> 01:08:21,440
for research in that area

2056
01:08:24,630 --> 01:08:24,239
right i was speaking to a local artist

2057
01:08:27,430 --> 01:08:24,640
um

2058
01:08:28,550 --> 01:08:27,440
i don't know maybe a couple days ago and

2059
01:08:31,590 --> 01:08:28,560
i said to her

2060
01:08:33,669 --> 01:08:31,600
that um oh you know she said so you do

2061
01:08:33,990 --> 01:08:33,679
the show you know you do i do a podcast

2062
01:08:36,390 --> 01:08:34,000
on

2063
01:08:37,430 --> 01:08:36,400
antiques and fine art and i said well i

2064
01:08:39,510 --> 01:08:37,440
also do another

2065
01:08:41,669 --> 01:08:39,520
podcast that's pretty pretty popular and

2066
01:08:46,309 --> 01:08:41,679
she goes oh i love podcasts what is it

2067
01:08:49,269 --> 01:08:46,319
i said ufos and just to see her reaction

2068
01:08:50,789 --> 01:08:49,279
and i told her um you know normally you

2069
01:08:52,709 --> 01:08:50,799
know a few years ago i wouldn't have

2070
01:08:55,189 --> 01:08:52,719
told you this but

2071
01:08:56,870 --> 01:08:55,199
ever since you know it's in the news you

2072
01:08:58,390 --> 01:08:56,880
know like you mentioned the navy

2073
01:09:00,550 --> 01:08:58,400
you know i was talking about it the

2074
01:09:01,590 --> 01:09:00,560
pentagon blah blah i'm not i'm not so

2075
01:09:03,669 --> 01:09:01,600
worried anymore

2076
01:09:05,590 --> 01:09:03,679
i don't i don't really care and you know

2077
01:09:07,510 --> 01:09:05,600
it's an artist it's not like i'm

2078
01:09:09,510 --> 01:09:07,520
you know going to potentially hurt my

2079
01:09:11,669 --> 01:09:09,520
business in some type of way

2080
01:09:12,950 --> 01:09:11,679
which is as an art appraiser here's a

2081
01:09:15,510 --> 01:09:12,960
question that

2082
01:09:17,269 --> 01:09:15,520
came in here is there any reason to

2083
01:09:21,349 --> 01:09:17,279
suspect the potential role

2084
01:09:24,390 --> 01:09:21,359
of quantum entanglement in light of ufos

2085
01:09:27,269 --> 01:09:24,400
short and long-term effects on witnesses

2086
01:09:29,189 --> 01:09:27,279
quantum entanglement that's uh when like

2087
01:09:31,510 --> 01:09:29,199
a particle is in one area

2088
01:09:33,110 --> 01:09:31,520
an electron in a neutron am i thinking

2089
01:09:35,749 --> 01:09:33,120
that i can't remember right

2090
01:09:37,349 --> 01:09:35,759
right so yeah and maybe this is kind of

2091
01:09:39,189 --> 01:09:37,359
getting to um

2092
01:09:40,789 --> 01:09:39,199
some of the quantum effects and there

2093
01:09:42,390 --> 01:09:40,799
you know there's some some research and

2094
01:09:45,189 --> 01:09:42,400
quantum impact on the brain

2095
01:09:46,870 --> 01:09:45,199
and and things like that it's still very

2096
01:09:48,789 --> 01:09:46,880
speculative in those areas i think i

2097
01:09:50,229 --> 01:09:48,799
think those are kinds of areas that that

2098
01:09:55,189 --> 01:09:50,239
we

2099
01:09:56,950 --> 01:09:55,199
many of us in this arena know the idea

2100
01:09:58,149 --> 01:09:56,960
of the holographic universe from

2101
01:10:00,149 --> 01:09:58,159
michael talbot who wrote the book the

2102
01:10:01,350 --> 01:10:00,159
holographic universe kind of based i

2103
01:10:02,790 --> 01:10:01,360
think originally on some of the work

2104
01:10:05,510 --> 01:10:02,800
penrose had done

2105
01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:05,520
uh all comes back to the troubling idea

2106
01:10:08,149 --> 01:10:07,440
that reality is difficult to understand

2107
01:10:09,910 --> 01:10:08,159
and maybe we

2108
01:10:11,590 --> 01:10:09,920
we have a way of understanding it which

2109
01:10:12,790 --> 01:10:11,600
is not always going to encompass the

2110
01:10:17,270 --> 01:10:12,800
things that we

2111
01:10:20,229 --> 01:10:17,280
that we encounter um and again maybe

2112
01:10:20,870 --> 01:10:20,239
if we think about ufos as some sort of

2113
01:10:22,709 --> 01:10:20,880
control

2114
01:10:25,030 --> 01:10:22,719
system if we want to use that term again

2115
01:10:27,750 --> 01:10:25,040
using kind of a valet term there

2116
01:10:29,030 --> 01:10:27,760
um a thermostat right whether it be an

2117
01:10:31,350 --> 01:10:29,040
internally

2118
01:10:33,830 --> 01:10:31,360
generated or externally right i mean the

2119
01:10:35,750 --> 01:10:33,840
idea that that these could be

2120
01:10:38,790 --> 01:10:35,760
apparitions in the sky that we somehow

2121
01:10:40,870 --> 01:10:38,800
can create ourselves using some form of

2122
01:10:42,790 --> 01:10:40,880
who know right but but the these these

2123
01:10:45,030 --> 01:10:42,800
kinds of ideas i think are where

2124
01:10:46,790 --> 01:10:45,040
the question should go i i still can't

2125
01:10:48,149 --> 01:10:46,800
say i understand quantum entanglement i

2126
01:10:48,950 --> 01:10:48,159
think as the old saying goes anyone who

2127
01:10:50,310 --> 01:10:48,960
says they

2128
01:10:52,790 --> 01:10:50,320
understand quantum physics doesn't

2129
01:10:56,630 --> 01:10:52,800
really understand quantum physics

2130
01:10:58,709 --> 01:10:56,640
um yeah yeah and string theory that's

2131
01:11:02,790 --> 01:10:58,719
another um

2132
01:11:06,229 --> 01:11:02,800
pretty uh interesting i should say

2133
01:11:09,110 --> 01:11:06,239
interesting uh thoughts for sure um

2134
01:11:09,910 --> 01:11:09,120
and i think the bottom line is at this

2135
01:11:12,950 --> 01:11:09,920
point

2136
01:11:13,910 --> 01:11:12,960
we really don't know you know we we may

2137
01:11:16,709 --> 01:11:13,920
not know

2138
01:11:18,709 --> 01:11:16,719
uh you mentioned shock valet and his you

2139
01:11:21,910 --> 01:11:18,719
know his thoughts on this whole thing we

2140
01:11:23,990 --> 01:11:21,920
it you know we may have no idea

2141
01:11:26,550 --> 01:11:24,000
uh even if it was explained to us we

2142
01:11:29,030 --> 01:11:26,560
still may not have any idea at all what

2143
01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:29,040
what's going on yeah i mean i always

2144
01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:31,120
wonder if it is in part at least a

2145
01:11:35,430 --> 01:11:33,280
symptom of the human condition right i

2146
01:11:37,590 --> 01:11:35,440
mean if there were other planets and

2147
01:11:39,350 --> 01:11:37,600
let's say there are uh extraterrestrials

2148
01:11:39,990 --> 01:11:39,360
do they have ufos on their planet right

2149
01:11:42,470 --> 01:11:40,000
i mean is this

2150
01:11:43,189 --> 01:11:42,480
an experience that seeing unknown things

2151
01:11:45,189 --> 01:11:43,199
in the sky

2152
01:11:46,870 --> 01:11:45,199
touches some kind of inner human

2153
01:11:48,550 --> 01:11:46,880
condition right now when we try to talk

2154
01:11:49,030 --> 01:11:48,560
about the brass tacks of what that means

2155
01:11:52,229 --> 01:11:49,040
in

2156
01:11:54,149 --> 01:11:52,239
the sky it's difficult but

2157
01:11:55,830 --> 01:11:54,159
you know i wonder what extraterrestrials

2158
01:11:57,189 --> 01:11:55,840
have their own ufos right

2159
01:11:59,030 --> 01:11:57,199
how about that i never thought of that

2160
01:12:00,550 --> 01:11:59,040
i've i have thought of like i wonder

2161
01:12:04,550 --> 01:12:00,560
what the equivalent is

2162
01:12:06,070 --> 01:12:04,560
of um someone's first car or first kiss

2163
01:12:07,590 --> 01:12:06,080
you know somewhere else in the universe

2164
01:12:08,310 --> 01:12:07,600
i mean there must be equivalence to

2165
01:12:09,910 --> 01:12:08,320
those

2166
01:12:12,310 --> 01:12:09,920
type of things i really do believe there

2167
01:12:14,470 --> 01:12:12,320
has to be intelligent life out there

2168
01:12:16,070 --> 01:12:14,480
it would be just uh almost impossible

2169
01:12:18,950 --> 01:12:16,080
that there isn't in my opinion

2170
01:12:20,630 --> 01:12:18,960
but it's just an opinion um here's a

2171
01:12:21,590 --> 01:12:20,640
another question can you give your best

2172
01:12:23,669 --> 01:12:21,600
guess

2173
01:12:26,870 --> 01:12:23,679
at the root of the paranormal

2174
01:12:31,669 --> 01:12:29,750
oh yeah if uh if i had to guess i mean i

2175
01:12:33,910 --> 01:12:31,679
would say that i find

2176
01:12:35,990 --> 01:12:33,920
the the explanation that we're visited

2177
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:36,000
maybe necessarily by traditional if we

2178
01:12:38,630 --> 01:12:36,880
want to say the

2179
01:12:41,270 --> 01:12:38,640
traditional idea of extraterrestrials

2180
01:12:43,030 --> 01:12:41,280
lacking um not to say that i don't think

2181
01:12:44,790 --> 01:12:43,040
there probably are extraterrestrials and

2182
01:12:46,070 --> 01:12:44,800
i can't discount that they could come

2183
01:12:47,910 --> 01:12:46,080
here but some of the

2184
01:12:50,709 --> 01:12:47,920
things that we see in the encounter

2185
01:12:52,550 --> 01:12:50,719
literature i mean

2186
01:12:53,830 --> 01:12:52,560
josh cutchen had a good book he wrote on

2187
01:12:55,990 --> 01:12:53,840
uh food exchange

2188
01:12:58,310 --> 01:12:56,000
right between entities both both

2189
01:12:58,630 --> 01:12:58,320
mythological entities and entities and

2190
01:13:00,790 --> 01:12:58,640
close

2191
01:13:02,870 --> 01:13:00,800
encounters whitley comes to mind he

2192
01:13:04,390 --> 01:13:02,880
experienced drinking a bitter tasting

2193
01:13:06,310 --> 01:13:04,400
liquid if i recall

2194
01:13:07,430 --> 01:13:06,320
correctly so these these things to me

2195
01:13:08,630 --> 01:13:07,440
seem

2196
01:13:10,390 --> 01:13:08,640
are these science things that we should

2197
01:13:12,390 --> 01:13:10,400
try to scientifically explain or these

2198
01:13:15,189 --> 01:13:12,400
things that we could better understand

2199
01:13:17,990 --> 01:13:15,199
in almost a mythological or symbolic

2200
01:13:19,750 --> 01:13:18,000
kind of context right um

2201
01:13:21,430 --> 01:13:19,760
it wasn't really necessarily for for

2202
01:13:23,590 --> 01:13:21,440
whitley to drink a

2203
01:13:25,270 --> 01:13:23,600
a kind of stinking vowel tasting liquid

2204
01:13:26,630 --> 01:13:25,280
or does that is that something that's

2205
01:13:28,310 --> 01:13:26,640
that's representing something in a

2206
01:13:28,870 --> 01:13:28,320
different way to us like maybe that's

2207
01:13:31,910 --> 01:13:28,880
the

2208
01:13:33,510 --> 01:13:31,920
it's a language which we might say is

2209
01:13:34,870 --> 01:13:33,520
similar to a language of dreams and

2210
01:13:37,350 --> 01:13:34,880
language of symbols and

2211
01:13:39,030 --> 01:13:37,360
archetypes and things like that maybe

2212
01:13:41,030 --> 01:13:39,040
the meaning of drinking a foul-tasting

2213
01:13:42,870 --> 01:13:41,040
liquid in an encounter isn't

2214
01:13:44,390 --> 01:13:42,880
what we might on a surface level assume

2215
01:13:46,390 --> 01:13:44,400
it would be that would

2216
01:13:47,430 --> 01:13:46,400
and of course along with that come you

2217
01:13:49,270 --> 01:13:47,440
know the

2218
01:13:50,790 --> 01:13:49,280
the paranormal parts of it i'd be

2219
01:13:53,350 --> 01:13:50,800
interested to know if we

2220
01:13:54,950 --> 01:13:53,360
did an objective you know survey of how

2221
01:13:57,750 --> 01:13:54,960
many people that have reported

2222
01:13:58,310 --> 01:13:57,760
let's say ufos at all and whether

2223
01:13:59,910 --> 01:13:58,320
they've had

2224
01:14:01,510 --> 01:13:59,920
you know related or what they consider

2225
01:14:03,750 --> 01:14:01,520
related paranormal

2226
01:14:04,870 --> 01:14:03,760
things esp things or poltergeist things

2227
01:14:05,990 --> 01:14:04,880
i think the numbers would be a lot

2228
01:14:08,470 --> 01:14:06,000
higher

2229
01:14:09,990 --> 01:14:08,480
than we've probably known so far had

2230
01:14:12,470 --> 01:14:10,000
there been some suggestion but

2231
01:14:13,350 --> 01:14:12,480
i i think that's and that's a hard a

2232
01:14:15,430 --> 01:14:13,360
hard aspect

2233
01:14:17,590 --> 01:14:15,440
to not want to look at right if if we're

2234
01:14:19,270 --> 01:14:17,600
trying to figure out what ufos are and

2235
01:14:21,270 --> 01:14:19,280
they seem to be wrapped up inside

2236
01:14:22,390 --> 01:14:21,280
poltergeists or something else it's a

2237
01:14:25,990 --> 01:14:22,400
difficult

2238
01:14:30,149 --> 01:14:26,000
there are

2239
01:14:31,830 --> 01:14:30,159
have reported

2240
01:14:33,270 --> 01:14:31,840
you know a bigfoot sighting and then a

2241
01:14:34,950 --> 01:14:33,280
ufo

2242
01:14:37,189 --> 01:14:34,960
and i don't know if a ghost was in play

2243
01:14:38,310 --> 01:14:37,199
there or not but and ring mentions this

2244
01:14:40,229 --> 01:14:38,320
kind of again

2245
01:14:42,070 --> 01:14:40,239
ken ring did his great study on on

2246
01:14:45,430 --> 01:14:42,080
near-death experiences and ufos

2247
01:14:46,790 --> 01:14:45,440
the this idea of um you know

2248
01:14:48,550 --> 01:14:46,800
these kind of i'm sorry i totally

2249
01:14:49,030 --> 01:14:48,560
blanked on with the where i was going

2250
01:14:50,709 --> 01:14:49,040
with that

2251
01:14:52,149 --> 01:14:50,719
oh the different kinds of effects i'm

2252
01:14:53,669 --> 01:14:52,159
sorry a paranormal

2253
01:14:56,229 --> 01:14:53,679
open what he called paranormal

2254
01:14:58,550 --> 01:14:56,239
functioning being being heightened so

2255
01:14:59,669 --> 01:14:58,560
telepathy precognition psychokinesis

2256
01:15:01,910 --> 01:14:59,679
reports of these

2257
01:15:02,950 --> 01:15:01,920
kinds of things increased commonly after

2258
01:15:05,030 --> 01:15:02,960
either a near-death

2259
01:15:06,070 --> 01:15:05,040
or ufo experience as i dropped the book

2260
01:15:10,070 --> 01:15:06,080
but

2261
01:15:12,950 --> 01:15:10,080
yeah and near-death experiences i know

2262
01:15:15,430 --> 01:15:12,960
this is a ufo show but those

2263
01:15:16,070 --> 01:15:15,440
those are really bizarre some of the

2264
01:15:18,310 --> 01:15:16,080
things that

2265
01:15:20,390 --> 01:15:18,320
people claim that they saw happen

2266
01:15:22,790 --> 01:15:20,400
couldn't be explained

2267
01:15:25,990 --> 01:15:22,800
you know like a doctor whispering or

2268
01:15:27,590 --> 01:15:26,000
something or another room or whatever

2269
01:15:30,070 --> 01:15:27,600
yeah there are you know and it's not an

2270
01:15:31,270 --> 01:15:30,080
area of my specific expertise but you do

2271
01:15:32,149 --> 01:15:31,280
hear of cases where people have

2272
01:15:38,870 --> 01:15:32,159
objective

2273
01:15:41,669 --> 01:15:38,880
how that i i think the the that the

2274
01:15:43,510 --> 01:15:41,679
the near-death encounter and does kind

2275
01:15:45,430 --> 01:15:43,520
of map on in some ways to

2276
01:15:46,870 --> 01:15:45,440
these are experiences i guess if you you

2277
01:15:48,709 --> 01:15:46,880
know to me the interest isn't the fact

2278
01:15:49,590 --> 01:15:48,719
that we're conveying an experience that

2279
01:15:50,870 --> 01:15:49,600
we've had or that

2280
01:15:52,709 --> 01:15:50,880
you know the individual has had that is

2281
01:15:53,510 --> 01:15:52,719
not easy to verbalize it might not be

2282
01:15:54,950 --> 01:15:53,520
something that

2283
01:15:57,750 --> 01:15:54,960
in our society we even have a way of

2284
01:16:00,390 --> 01:15:57,760
discussing um

2285
01:16:02,229 --> 01:16:00,400
so it to me the the the the similarities

2286
01:16:03,750 --> 01:16:02,239
there and the the attention to

2287
01:16:05,510 --> 01:16:03,760
to altered states of consciousness and

2288
01:16:06,550 --> 01:16:05,520
there does seem to be even you know some

2289
01:16:07,750 --> 01:16:06,560
suggestion that

2290
01:16:10,070 --> 01:16:07,760
the certain kinds of childhood

2291
01:16:10,550 --> 01:16:10,080
experiences can can lead people to being

2292
01:16:13,189 --> 01:16:10,560
more

2293
01:16:15,189 --> 01:16:13,199
easily able to interact with

2294
01:16:17,189 --> 01:16:15,199
non-ordinary realities if we want to

2295
01:16:19,590 --> 01:16:17,199
kind of adopt that approach

2296
01:16:20,950 --> 01:16:19,600
um troublingly and i'll mention this i

2297
01:16:22,630 --> 01:16:20,960
won't harp on it there does

2298
01:16:24,310 --> 01:16:22,640
seem to be someone some suggestion in

2299
01:16:26,310 --> 01:16:24,320
the literature that that uh

2300
01:16:27,510 --> 01:16:26,320
difficult childhoods sources of trauma

2301
01:16:30,390 --> 01:16:27,520
and childhood and

2302
01:16:31,430 --> 01:16:30,400
and uh the learned ability to experience

2303
01:16:33,350 --> 01:16:31,440
dissociation

2304
01:16:35,830 --> 01:16:33,360
things like that might be tied up with

2305
01:16:38,229 --> 01:16:35,840
the later reports of the paranormal

2306
01:16:39,350 --> 01:16:38,239
um we'll have to see how that comes out

2307
01:16:39,830 --> 01:16:39,360
it's something i think they've been

2308
01:16:41,990 --> 01:16:39,840
mixed

2309
01:16:43,030 --> 01:16:42,000
findings on so i don't think it would be

2310
01:16:44,630 --> 01:16:43,040
as clear as

2311
01:16:46,149 --> 01:16:44,640
is that we might want to first you know

2312
01:16:48,470 --> 01:16:46,159
assume um

2313
01:16:50,870 --> 01:16:48,480
yeah commonly people that and rings work

2314
01:16:53,350 --> 01:16:50,880
at least people that were able to uh

2315
01:16:55,030 --> 01:16:53,360
to use his his kind of view people that

2316
01:16:57,030 --> 01:16:55,040
were able to experience ufos and

2317
01:16:58,870 --> 01:16:57,040
near-death experiences commonly had uh

2318
01:17:00,870 --> 01:16:58,880
histories and childhood of being uh in

2319
01:17:01,990 --> 01:17:00,880
tune with other realities aware of other

2320
01:17:05,189 --> 01:17:02,000
realities

2321
01:17:06,870 --> 01:17:05,199
um things like that so interesting

2322
01:17:08,550 --> 01:17:06,880
um here's a question uh you probably

2323
01:17:11,750 --> 01:17:08,560
want to clarify this one

2324
01:17:13,270 --> 01:17:11,760
um can you read that so he thinks that

2325
01:17:15,270 --> 01:17:13,280
it's more likely

2326
01:17:17,270 --> 01:17:15,280
an entirely psychological phenomena

2327
01:17:19,030 --> 01:17:17,280
rather than an actual event occurring

2328
01:17:20,310 --> 01:17:19,040
i don't think no i don't think i could

2329
01:17:22,550 --> 01:17:20,320
no i

2330
01:17:23,910 --> 01:17:22,560
i'm i i think there's something that's

2331
01:17:27,270 --> 01:17:23,920
stimulating

2332
01:17:28,870 --> 01:17:27,280
the experience now the hard part for me

2333
01:17:29,990 --> 01:17:28,880
becomes how to figure out what it is

2334
01:17:32,390 --> 01:17:30,000
that's actually causing

2335
01:17:33,990 --> 01:17:32,400
the or you know i don't think that that

2336
01:17:34,950 --> 01:17:34,000
the traditional explanation that a

2337
01:17:36,709 --> 01:17:34,960
person can

2338
01:17:38,229 --> 01:17:36,719
can have an optical illusion of

2339
01:17:40,470 --> 01:17:38,239
something in the distance and then go on

2340
01:17:42,149 --> 01:17:40,480
to to convey this kind of experiences

2341
01:17:44,070 --> 01:17:42,159
you know a life-changing experience is

2342
01:17:46,550 --> 01:17:44,080
very likely uh so no

2343
01:17:47,990 --> 01:17:46,560
i would say at least if i you know kind

2344
01:17:49,590 --> 01:17:48,000
of get the underlying meaning of that

2345
01:17:52,870 --> 01:17:49,600
question i'm not saying that the

2346
01:17:55,910 --> 01:17:52,880
psychological explanations of ufos

2347
01:17:56,790 --> 01:17:55,920
are sufficient uh they we must kind of

2348
01:17:58,229 --> 01:17:56,800
understand

2349
01:18:00,229 --> 01:17:58,239
what it is there's something on the

2350
01:18:02,149 --> 01:18:00,239
other side of that that is

2351
01:18:03,910 --> 01:18:02,159
interacting with us i don't know what it

2352
01:18:06,550 --> 01:18:03,920
is i don't know if it seems to be

2353
01:18:08,229 --> 01:18:06,560
physical at some times it also seems to

2354
01:18:10,390 --> 01:18:08,239
do things that we would not consider

2355
01:18:12,070 --> 01:18:10,400
physical um

2356
01:18:13,990 --> 01:18:12,080
but again any anytime you kind of talk

2357
01:18:15,750 --> 01:18:14,000
about psychology and

2358
01:18:17,510 --> 01:18:15,760
and uh how it relates to people's

2359
01:18:19,189 --> 01:18:17,520
experiences you know

2360
01:18:21,830 --> 01:18:19,199
it might come across as if you're you're

2361
01:18:23,750 --> 01:18:21,840
completely negating an external

2362
01:18:25,750 --> 01:18:23,760
reality but that's not what i want to do

2363
01:18:28,550 --> 01:18:25,760
and that's not my intention at least

2364
01:18:29,270 --> 01:18:28,560
yeah now you you mentioned earlier ufo

2365
01:18:31,030 --> 01:18:29,280
sighting

2366
01:18:32,470 --> 01:18:31,040
um someone wanted to know if you had any

2367
01:18:35,510 --> 01:18:32,480
other experiences

2368
01:18:36,950 --> 01:18:35,520
in your life personally just just the

2369
01:18:38,790 --> 01:18:36,960
just the sighting of the red light

2370
01:18:41,030 --> 01:18:38,800
siding um

2371
01:18:42,390 --> 01:18:41,040
a couple of odd just oddballs like we've

2372
01:18:44,550 --> 01:18:42,400
all you know

2373
01:18:45,430 --> 01:18:44,560
had kind of random odd experiences

2374
01:18:49,350 --> 01:18:45,440
nothing worth

2375
01:18:53,350 --> 01:18:49,360
putting out there the ufo thing with

2376
01:18:53,669 --> 01:18:53,360
uh uh in the early 90s i think and it

2377
01:18:58,630 --> 01:18:53,679
was

2378
01:18:59,910 --> 01:18:58,640
two or three second sighting nothing

2379
01:19:01,910 --> 01:18:59,920
if it had not been that there was an

2380
01:19:02,390 --> 01:19:01,920
area already kind of discussed in terms

2381
01:19:03,750 --> 01:19:02,400
of

2382
01:19:05,750 --> 01:19:03,760
the sightings i probably wouldn't even

2383
01:19:07,189 --> 01:19:05,760
put much emphasis on it but you know

2384
01:19:09,270 --> 01:19:07,199
being able to say i saw the gulf freeze

2385
01:19:12,390 --> 01:19:09,280
red light was pretty pretty cool

2386
01:19:16,310 --> 01:19:12,400
yeah yeah yeah um and

2387
01:19:18,390 --> 01:19:16,320
uh it it's kind of funny it seems like

2388
01:19:19,750 --> 01:19:18,400
with was that going on that was in the

2389
01:19:22,470 --> 01:19:19,760
90s you're saying it

2390
01:19:23,590 --> 01:19:22,480
wasn't that also going on the hudson

2391
01:19:26,790 --> 01:19:23,600
river

2392
01:19:28,229 --> 01:19:26,800
valley yes i remember similar yeah

2393
01:19:30,070 --> 01:19:28,239
because i remember hearing at the same

2394
01:19:30,950 --> 01:19:30,080
time hearing what was going on there so

2395
01:19:33,430 --> 01:19:30,960
yes

2396
01:19:34,870 --> 01:19:33,440
you know yeah someone just said you know

2397
01:19:37,110 --> 01:19:34,880
i've heard people

2398
01:19:39,030 --> 01:19:37,120
say this before lights are not objects i

2399
01:19:40,310 --> 01:19:39,040
mean you don't see a structured craft

2400
01:19:42,550 --> 01:19:40,320
it doesn't mean that there's not a

2401
01:19:43,750 --> 01:19:42,560
structure crap you know that the lights

2402
01:19:47,110 --> 01:19:43,760
are mounted to

2403
01:19:50,390 --> 01:19:47,120
but um you know uh people take

2404
01:19:52,229 --> 01:19:50,400
more seriously a structured craft than

2405
01:19:55,189 --> 01:19:52,239
lights in the sky i guess

2406
01:19:55,669 --> 01:19:55,199
sure and i mean i think probably to some

2407
01:19:57,830 --> 01:19:55,679
degree

2408
01:19:59,669 --> 01:19:57,840
uh realistically what even jay alan

2409
01:20:00,950 --> 01:19:59,679
heineck what did he call those dams what

2410
01:20:02,470 --> 01:20:00,960
he had a term for them

2411
01:20:03,750 --> 01:20:02,480
those damn nocturnal lights it was

2412
01:20:05,270 --> 01:20:03,760
actually made an acronym it was

2413
01:20:07,910 --> 01:20:05,280
something like you know stupid

2414
01:20:09,030 --> 01:20:07,920
lights in the sky sls or you know he

2415
01:20:10,709 --> 01:20:09,040
totally just thought there's not a lot

2416
01:20:12,229 --> 01:20:10,719
of information that can be

2417
01:20:13,750 --> 01:20:12,239
gleaned from those and i mean not to

2418
01:20:15,830 --> 01:20:13,760
again discount the experience of a

2419
01:20:18,149 --> 01:20:15,840
person who might have

2420
01:20:19,830 --> 01:20:18,159
something meaningful happen there but

2421
01:20:21,750 --> 01:20:19,840
lights in the sky at night

2422
01:20:22,950 --> 01:20:21,760
i don't know that we can gain a lot more

2423
01:20:25,030 --> 01:20:22,960
insight about

2424
01:20:27,110 --> 01:20:25,040
about ufos from from those kinds of

2425
01:20:28,470 --> 01:20:27,120
encounters i will tell you though people

2426
01:20:31,110 --> 01:20:28,480
have mentioned

2427
01:20:32,070 --> 01:20:31,120
to me you know on and off air but a lot

2428
01:20:34,709 --> 01:20:32,080
of people have mentioned

2429
01:20:36,470 --> 01:20:34,719
off here you know watching what they

2430
01:20:38,149 --> 01:20:36,480
thought was like a satellite nose and it

2431
01:20:40,950 --> 01:20:38,159
took off in another direction and

2432
01:20:42,070 --> 01:20:40,960
you know bizarre behavior of lights in

2433
01:20:45,669 --> 01:20:42,080
the sky that

2434
01:20:48,149 --> 01:20:45,679
is another mystery and you know

2435
01:20:50,070 --> 01:20:48,159
go ahead no i was just going to say some

2436
01:20:52,790 --> 01:20:50,080
of the behavior of the objects even is

2437
01:20:54,070 --> 01:20:52,800
is of of interest to me i i know of a

2438
01:20:56,149 --> 01:20:54,080
few cases where we've seen

2439
01:20:57,270 --> 01:20:56,159
columns of light actually bend in a way

2440
01:20:58,870 --> 01:20:57,280
that that i

2441
01:21:00,390 --> 01:20:58,880
remember professor michael swords

2442
01:21:00,870 --> 01:21:00,400
talking about a couple incidents of this

2443
01:21:02,390 --> 01:21:00,880
where

2444
01:21:04,390 --> 01:21:02,400
was it a car headlight i believe

2445
01:21:06,149 --> 01:21:04,400
actually shot out and then turned in an

2446
01:21:07,830 --> 01:21:06,159
l and the light was almost being pulled

2447
01:21:10,790 --> 01:21:07,840
to the object and yeah yeah

2448
01:21:11,510 --> 01:21:10,800
yeah kind of violated physics um you

2449
01:21:12,870 --> 01:21:11,520
know

2450
01:21:15,030 --> 01:21:12,880
if we're talking about things that can

2451
01:21:16,550 --> 01:21:15,040
affect light in those ways and those are

2452
01:21:18,310 --> 01:21:16,560
externally

2453
01:21:20,470 --> 01:21:18,320
legitimately how should we say the

2454
01:21:21,669 --> 01:21:20,480
externally real objects to the impact

2455
01:21:22,629 --> 01:21:21,679
that those things could have on the

2456
01:21:24,950 --> 01:21:22,639
human brain

2457
01:21:26,470 --> 01:21:24,960
and maybe a and i trouble you know i

2458
01:21:27,669 --> 01:21:26,480
have trouble trying to view as myself

2459
01:21:29,189 --> 01:21:27,679
here on this but

2460
01:21:31,110 --> 01:21:29,199
maybe there's something that is

2461
01:21:32,870 --> 01:21:31,120
energizing people internally

2462
01:21:34,550 --> 01:21:32,880
from a distance maybe some of these

2463
01:21:35,350 --> 01:21:34,560
electromagnetic effects are actually

2464
01:21:37,430 --> 01:21:35,360
causing

2465
01:21:39,030 --> 01:21:37,440
what we could call psychic energy right

2466
01:21:40,550 --> 01:21:39,040
things in the brain and the mind to

2467
01:21:43,270 --> 01:21:40,560
churn and change and

2468
01:21:44,470 --> 01:21:43,280
and the reaction to that is is some kind

2469
01:21:46,709 --> 01:21:44,480
of interactive process

2470
01:21:48,470 --> 01:21:46,719
right i don't know maybe if i was alive

2471
01:21:50,070 --> 01:21:48,480
in the 1800s and i had a ufo sighting

2472
01:21:51,910 --> 01:21:50,080
i'd describe propellers on it and maybe

2473
01:21:53,590 --> 01:21:51,920
i really saw them i don't know

2474
01:21:56,390 --> 01:21:53,600
maybe that's a you know a

2475
01:21:59,590 --> 01:21:56,400
misidentification or a misdescription

2476
01:22:01,669 --> 01:21:59,600
you know it's difficult but um you know

2477
01:22:03,669 --> 01:22:01,679
cases of of encounters with entities

2478
01:22:05,590 --> 01:22:03,679
aren't aren't aren't solely related to

2479
01:22:07,669 --> 01:22:05,600
to ufos as those of us

2480
01:22:09,189 --> 01:22:07,679
you know familiar with the fairy lore

2481
01:22:09,669 --> 01:22:09,199
and things like that and all kinds of

2482
01:22:11,990 --> 01:22:09,679
other

2483
01:22:12,870 --> 01:22:12,000
you know anomalous encounters it's not

2484
01:22:15,430 --> 01:22:12,880
always

2485
01:22:17,430 --> 01:22:15,440
you know ufos aren't the only source of

2486
01:22:20,149 --> 01:22:17,440
of our

2487
01:22:21,110 --> 01:22:20,159
our experiences with the uh the external

2488
01:22:24,070 --> 01:22:21,120
whatever it is

2489
01:22:25,350 --> 01:22:24,080
right right right um you know there's a

2490
01:22:27,750 --> 01:22:25,360
little bit of talk in the

2491
01:22:29,830 --> 01:22:27,760
chat about whitley strieber and um you

2492
01:22:33,270 --> 01:22:29,840
know that he's a gifted offer basic

2493
01:22:34,149 --> 01:22:33,280
author basically and you know um is his

2494
01:22:35,830 --> 01:22:34,159
story

2495
01:22:37,750 --> 01:22:35,840
believable do you think it's a fairly

2496
01:22:37,990 --> 01:22:37,760
believable story of some of the things

2497
01:22:41,110 --> 01:22:38,000
he's

2498
01:22:42,870 --> 01:22:41,120
told i think uh

2499
01:22:44,629 --> 01:22:42,880
from you know my interactions with

2500
01:22:47,510 --> 01:22:44,639
whitley and just reading and knowing

2501
01:22:49,669 --> 01:22:47,520
the case to you know like many of us do

2502
01:22:52,149 --> 01:22:49,679
i guess i i think he's very uh

2503
01:22:53,669 --> 01:22:52,159
believable in in terms of he he believes

2504
01:22:54,709 --> 01:22:53,679
exactly what he's trying to describe i

2505
01:22:56,070 --> 01:22:54,719
think he

2506
01:22:57,910 --> 01:22:56,080
he does a good job of getting i think a

2507
01:23:00,550 --> 01:22:57,920
lot of the nuances and a lot of the

2508
01:23:02,390 --> 01:23:00,560
kind of he's such a good writer that he

2509
01:23:04,149 --> 01:23:02,400
can describe in in many ways some of the

2510
01:23:05,030 --> 01:23:04,159
odd things about the encounters that

2511
01:23:07,110 --> 01:23:05,040
might not make

2512
01:23:08,629 --> 01:23:07,120
sense if someone who was a less great

2513
01:23:10,390 --> 01:23:08,639
writer described them but

2514
01:23:12,149 --> 01:23:10,400
i mean then again it becomes a question

2515
01:23:13,830 --> 01:23:12,159
he's can an amazing writer

2516
01:23:15,350 --> 01:23:13,840
is there a reason that an amazing writer

2517
01:23:15,830 --> 01:23:15,360
might have an experience like this i

2518
01:23:17,830 --> 01:23:15,840
don't know

2519
01:23:20,149 --> 01:23:17,840
right i mean and you know we could even

2520
01:23:22,070 --> 01:23:20,159
go into i know there's been some

2521
01:23:23,750 --> 01:23:22,080
i don't know how much we shouldn't but

2522
01:23:26,070 --> 01:23:23,760
even whitley has has discussed that

2523
01:23:27,270 --> 01:23:26,080
in his youth i think he was maybe

2524
01:23:30,229 --> 01:23:27,280
affiliated with some

2525
01:23:30,870 --> 01:23:30,239
some uh testing university testing and

2526
01:23:32,550 --> 01:23:30,880
psychological

2527
01:23:35,510 --> 01:23:32,560
i i don't know but there's been some

2528
01:23:37,990 --> 01:23:35,520
some kind of you know chatter there but

2529
01:23:39,430 --> 01:23:38,000
um yeah i mean the bigger bigger thing

2530
01:23:41,669 --> 01:23:39,440
there to me again is is

2531
01:23:43,189 --> 01:23:41,679
he's such a great writer was that

2532
01:23:44,709 --> 01:23:43,199
related at all to the reason that he had

2533
01:23:46,550 --> 01:23:44,719
the experience i mean it seems almost

2534
01:23:48,790 --> 01:23:46,560
too much of a coincidence

2535
01:23:50,950 --> 01:23:48,800
um yeah but there are many people in

2536
01:23:51,910 --> 01:23:50,960
ufos that come across as completely

2537
01:23:53,669 --> 01:23:51,920
believable and

2538
01:23:55,750 --> 01:23:53,679
travis walton's probably one of the most

2539
01:23:57,350 --> 01:23:55,760
most believable people in ufos i'd say

2540
01:24:00,310 --> 01:23:57,360
in terms of having had

2541
01:24:02,870 --> 01:24:00,320
you know their own experience um yeah

2542
01:24:05,189 --> 01:24:02,880
talk about the way it affects someone

2543
01:24:05,990 --> 01:24:05,199
you know i've had a lot of talks with uh

2544
01:24:08,870 --> 01:24:06,000
travis

2545
01:24:10,149 --> 01:24:08,880
over the years and he you know he really

2546
01:24:12,790 --> 01:24:10,159
wishes it never happened

2547
01:24:14,709 --> 01:24:12,800
you know you know although you know i'm

2548
01:24:15,910 --> 01:24:14,719
sure there are

2549
01:24:17,750 --> 01:24:15,920
you know there's always something good

2550
01:24:21,030 --> 01:24:17,760
that comes out of something bad

2551
01:24:22,950 --> 01:24:21,040
so you know yeah and i mean i know with

2552
01:24:24,070 --> 01:24:22,960
with travis going through

2553
01:24:26,470 --> 01:24:24,080
there were people targeting him

2554
01:24:27,990 --> 01:24:26,480
specifically i mean i talk about

2555
01:24:29,510 --> 01:24:28,000
phil class and people like but you know

2556
01:24:30,550 --> 01:24:29,520
if you've gone to a level where people

2557
01:24:32,870 --> 01:24:30,560
are actively

2558
01:24:34,229 --> 01:24:32,880
you know just putting you in the

2559
01:24:35,110 --> 01:24:34,239
community and saying you're a liar and

2560
01:24:36,310 --> 01:24:35,120
then

2561
01:24:38,709 --> 01:24:36,320
travis went through a lot i don't think

2562
01:24:39,990 --> 01:24:38,719
he gained much out of what he

2563
01:24:41,110 --> 01:24:40,000
what he went through there maybe a

2564
01:24:43,110 --> 01:24:41,120
different perspective i don't think he

2565
01:24:45,990 --> 01:24:43,120
monetarily has gained a lot from it

2566
01:24:47,270 --> 01:24:46,000
um yeah i want to i want to discuss that

2567
01:24:48,550 --> 01:24:47,280
just a little bit because there's a

2568
01:24:51,590 --> 01:24:48,560
misconception

2569
01:24:53,590 --> 01:24:51,600
oh you know he's making a fortune he

2570
01:24:55,910 --> 01:24:53,600
speaks at all these events or whatever

2571
01:24:56,709 --> 01:24:55,920
he's told he's told me we've sat and

2572
01:24:58,390 --> 01:24:56,719
talked

2573
01:24:59,830 --> 01:24:58,400
he says do you know that since i'm

2574
01:25:02,950 --> 01:24:59,840
retired i have

2575
01:25:04,790 --> 01:25:02,960
flexibility so i'll i'll you know pay

2576
01:25:06,870 --> 01:25:04,800
out of my own pocket to travel

2577
01:25:07,910 --> 01:25:06,880
to half of these things and he says and

2578
01:25:10,550 --> 01:25:07,920
then it's like

2579
01:25:11,590 --> 01:25:10,560
um you know the fee i get is enough to

2580
01:25:13,910 --> 01:25:11,600
like cover

2581
01:25:14,629 --> 01:25:13,920
you know some other expenses or whatever

2582
01:25:16,310 --> 01:25:14,639
but he says

2583
01:25:17,830 --> 01:25:16,320
he said i don't do anything for the

2584
01:25:20,310 --> 01:25:17,840
money i could care about that

2585
01:25:21,750 --> 01:25:20,320
you know he just he wants one thing

2586
01:25:23,830 --> 01:25:21,760
about travis

2587
01:25:26,070 --> 01:25:23,840
his story has never changed it's always

2588
01:25:29,590 --> 01:25:26,080
been exactly the same and and

2589
01:25:30,470 --> 01:25:29,600
uh you know he's it's such an incredible

2590
01:25:33,510 --> 01:25:30,480
story

2591
01:25:34,790 --> 01:25:33,520
and i noticed also that travis i if i my

2592
01:25:35,350 --> 01:25:34,800
understanding at least is that he's

2593
01:25:36,950 --> 01:25:35,360
never

2594
01:25:39,189 --> 01:25:36,960
or maybe only once has gone through a

2595
01:25:41,270 --> 01:25:39,199
hypnosis regarding the just one time

2596
01:25:42,470 --> 01:25:41,280
it'll never go again yeah and that makes

2597
01:25:44,070 --> 01:25:42,480
me wonder if

2598
01:25:45,590 --> 01:25:44,080
there has been some evidence that and

2599
01:25:47,590 --> 01:25:45,600
there was an article actually it was a

2600
01:25:50,229 --> 01:25:47,600
kufos article oddly enough that

2601
01:25:51,669 --> 01:25:50,239
uh people who were hypnotized more times

2602
01:25:53,270 --> 01:25:51,679
actually reported more instances of

2603
01:25:55,270 --> 01:25:53,280
physical abduction

2604
01:25:56,310 --> 01:25:55,280
um how you interpret that of course you

2605
01:25:59,350 --> 01:25:56,320
know but but more

2606
01:26:02,070 --> 01:25:59,360
more hypnosis more more incidents of

2607
01:26:03,430 --> 01:26:02,080
so i i just find it you know again to

2608
01:26:05,669 --> 01:26:03,440
speak to the validity

2609
01:26:07,430 --> 01:26:05,679
of what travis has recounted to to not

2610
01:26:09,350 --> 01:26:07,440
have gone repeatedly back and then

2611
01:26:11,189 --> 01:26:09,360
changed a story based on more recent

2612
01:26:13,910 --> 01:26:11,199
recollections and things like that

2613
01:26:15,030 --> 01:26:13,920
yeah he he basically said he does not

2614
01:26:17,510 --> 01:26:15,040
ever want to

2615
01:26:18,310 --> 01:26:17,520
do that again i mean it was horrific for

2616
01:26:20,470 --> 01:26:18,320
him to go

2617
01:26:21,669 --> 01:26:20,480
through that and it's interesting that's

2618
01:26:23,750 --> 01:26:21,679
another thing that you know i mentioned

2619
01:26:24,310 --> 01:26:23,760
at ufo congress uh berthold schwartz who

2620
01:26:26,470 --> 01:26:24,320
was a

2621
01:26:27,830 --> 01:26:26,480
maybe one of the biggest psychiatrists

2622
01:26:30,149 --> 01:26:27,840
in in ufos for

2623
01:26:31,510 --> 01:26:30,159
for many years you know he had he was uh

2624
01:26:34,070 --> 01:26:31,520
he worked in hypnosis of

2625
01:26:35,990 --> 01:26:34,080
people who would uh odd encounters and

2626
01:26:38,229 --> 01:26:36,000
he warns heavily you know of of

2627
01:26:39,590 --> 01:26:38,239
some of the reactions to hypnosis that

2628
01:26:41,990 --> 01:26:39,600
that he he noted um

2629
01:26:43,590 --> 01:26:42,000
panic um you know just negative

2630
01:26:45,669 --> 01:26:43,600
emotional reactions

2631
01:26:46,709 --> 01:26:45,679
um so it you don't hear much about those

2632
01:26:49,030 --> 01:26:46,719
i don't think in the last

2633
01:26:50,390 --> 01:26:49,040
several years but maybe hypnosis is kind

2634
01:26:52,149 --> 01:26:50,400
of not not as uh

2635
01:26:53,990 --> 01:26:52,159
in vogue as it is it maybe was in the

2636
01:26:56,070 --> 01:26:54,000
90s and early you know

2637
01:26:57,990 --> 01:26:56,080
early 2000s i don't know well i know

2638
01:27:00,470 --> 01:26:58,000
someone that uh

2639
01:27:01,750 --> 01:27:00,480
has been you know uh just started

2640
01:27:03,590 --> 01:27:01,760
practicing she

2641
01:27:05,189 --> 01:27:03,600
is really taking it serious and you know

2642
01:27:07,750 --> 01:27:05,199
very very careful

2643
01:27:08,629 --> 01:27:07,760
um that she's not doing anything that

2644
01:27:10,629 --> 01:27:08,639
may lead

2645
01:27:12,629 --> 01:27:10,639
someone in any type of way and just

2646
01:27:14,790 --> 01:27:12,639
trying to be real real thorough and uh

2647
01:27:16,629 --> 01:27:14,800
basically volunteering her time she's

2648
01:27:19,110 --> 01:27:16,639
she's not charging or anything

2649
01:27:20,390 --> 01:27:19,120
um and uh but it's pretty interesting

2650
01:27:22,550 --> 01:27:20,400
because i don't know how

2651
01:27:24,550 --> 01:27:22,560
any of that really works i just know

2652
01:27:25,830 --> 01:27:24,560
people become more relaxed and maybe

2653
01:27:27,590 --> 01:27:25,840
they can

2654
01:27:29,430 --> 01:27:27,600
you know sort of access some part of the

2655
01:27:30,229 --> 01:27:29,440
brain i don't know how any of that stuff

2656
01:27:32,229 --> 01:27:30,239
works right

2657
01:27:33,430 --> 01:27:32,239
yeah the hypnosis i think the only

2658
01:27:35,350 --> 01:27:33,440
really agreed upon

2659
01:27:37,270 --> 01:27:35,360
definition or explanation is that kind

2660
01:27:39,270 --> 01:27:37,280
of a an altered state of focused

2661
01:27:41,189 --> 01:27:39,280
relaxation and i think that's been kind

2662
01:27:42,149 --> 01:27:41,199
of as far as most psychologists would be

2663
01:27:43,830 --> 01:27:42,159
willing to go it

2664
01:27:46,950 --> 01:27:43,840
it is an altered state that we can

2665
01:27:47,750 --> 01:27:46,960
achieve is kind of similar in some ways

2666
01:27:49,669 --> 01:27:47,760
uh to

2667
01:27:50,950 --> 01:27:49,679
you know an altered state people report

2668
01:27:52,149 --> 01:27:50,960
from during the encounter and

2669
01:27:53,510 --> 01:27:52,159
kind of to me is interesting that you

2670
01:27:54,629 --> 01:27:53,520
have these altered states involved

2671
01:27:56,470 --> 01:27:54,639
across the board

2672
01:27:58,390 --> 01:27:56,480
um but you know there's been mixed

2673
01:27:59,910 --> 01:27:58,400
evidence in terms of the ability for

2674
01:28:01,110 --> 01:27:59,920
hypnosis to help retrieve memory

2675
01:28:04,070 --> 01:28:01,120
accurately

2676
01:28:06,070 --> 01:28:04,080
um we all know anecdotally in criminal

2677
01:28:08,149 --> 01:28:06,080
cases sometimes there's benefits

2678
01:28:10,149 --> 01:28:08,159
other times there may not be i think the

2679
01:28:12,070 --> 01:28:10,159
the cost benefit there i don't know

2680
01:28:13,350 --> 01:28:12,080
if somebody's struggling with an issue

2681
01:28:14,709 --> 01:28:13,360
and you know they feel that

2682
01:28:16,790 --> 01:28:14,719
feel that can help them though i think

2683
01:28:17,270 --> 01:28:16,800
you know there's possibly a benefit

2684
01:28:19,590 --> 01:28:17,280
there

2685
01:28:21,110 --> 01:28:19,600
right i think and i think that kind of

2686
01:28:23,189 --> 01:28:21,120
overcomes the

2687
01:28:24,870 --> 01:28:23,199
the desire to question what these things

2688
01:28:27,189 --> 01:28:24,880
are as well i think it's important

2689
01:28:28,870 --> 01:28:27,199
some of the better social scientists or

2690
01:28:29,510 --> 01:28:28,880
psychologists and psychiatrists who have

2691
01:28:31,750 --> 01:28:29,520
been

2692
01:28:32,629 --> 01:28:31,760
in ufos have kept in mind you know the

2693
01:28:35,590 --> 01:28:32,639
idea that

2694
01:28:37,189 --> 01:28:35,600
their role is to help people treat what

2695
01:28:38,790 --> 01:28:37,199
they may perceive as trauma or come to

2696
01:28:40,709 --> 01:28:38,800
an understanding of their experience not

2697
01:28:43,110 --> 01:28:40,719
necessarily to be an investigator

2698
01:28:43,830 --> 01:28:43,120
to explain it uh even you know going

2699
01:28:46,470 --> 01:28:43,840
back to

2700
01:28:48,709 --> 01:28:46,480
betty and barney hill ben simon i think

2701
01:28:50,550 --> 01:28:48,719
his final analysis was that he felt he

2702
01:28:52,070 --> 01:28:50,560
felt the results of the hypnosis session

2703
01:28:52,950 --> 01:28:52,080
were basically betty reporting her

2704
01:28:54,870 --> 01:28:52,960
dreams

2705
01:28:56,470 --> 01:28:54,880
uh he didn't take the he didn't take the

2706
01:28:58,149 --> 01:28:56,480
explanation that it physically the the

2707
01:29:01,030 --> 01:28:58,159
kidnapping had physically happened as

2708
01:29:02,629 --> 01:29:01,040
as as a as a fact but but his that

2709
01:29:04,149 --> 01:29:02,639
wasn't what he was interested in

2710
01:29:06,390 --> 01:29:04,159
his interest was in alleviating the

2711
01:29:08,390 --> 01:29:06,400
symptoms that betty and barney had had

2712
01:29:10,790 --> 01:29:08,400
come to him with and i think that's

2713
01:29:11,430 --> 01:29:10,800
that's very uh it's a good position

2714
01:29:13,189 --> 01:29:11,440
right so

2715
01:29:14,470 --> 01:29:13,199
that you know as a mental health person

2716
01:29:16,790 --> 01:29:14,480
you you should be treating the

2717
01:29:18,070 --> 01:29:16,800
the wellness of the person less interest

2718
01:29:21,110 --> 01:29:18,080
in an investigation

2719
01:29:22,790 --> 01:29:21,120
so i i know someone that's um actually

2720
01:29:24,709 --> 01:29:22,800
probably listening to the show right now

2721
01:29:27,830 --> 01:29:24,719
who actually called dr

2722
01:29:30,390 --> 01:29:27,840
simon um you know years ago

2723
01:29:31,830 --> 01:29:30,400
and uh because of a situation with her

2724
01:29:34,950 --> 01:29:31,840
brother basically

2725
01:29:35,830 --> 01:29:34,960
and got into discussion with the betty

2726
01:29:39,189 --> 01:29:35,840
and barney hill

2727
01:29:41,590 --> 01:29:39,199
and i think uh he relayed uh just about

2728
01:29:44,390 --> 01:29:41,600
basically what you're saying

2729
01:29:45,750 --> 01:29:44,400
that uh yeah which is yeah there's a

2730
01:29:47,270 --> 01:29:45,760
there's an excellent interview actually

2731
01:29:49,430 --> 01:29:47,280
on the if you're familiar with the faded

2732
01:29:50,870 --> 01:29:49,440
discs ufo archive you can find them on

2733
01:29:52,070 --> 01:29:50,880
the way back there's an interview of ben

2734
01:29:54,470 --> 01:29:52,080
simon on a radio show

2735
01:29:55,350 --> 01:29:54,480
discussing his uh his take yeah he had a

2736
01:29:56,550 --> 01:29:55,360
hi simon

2737
01:29:58,870 --> 01:29:56,560
you know that's interesting because we

2738
01:30:00,070 --> 01:29:58,880
kind of that's the first ufo encounter

2739
01:30:02,149 --> 01:30:00,080
and hypnosis that

2740
01:30:04,070 --> 01:30:02,159
being you know tied up together uh simon

2741
01:30:05,910 --> 01:30:04,080
had worked as a doctor for

2742
01:30:07,510 --> 01:30:05,920
a psychiatrist for world war ii vets

2743
01:30:09,350 --> 01:30:07,520
using hypnosis to treat

2744
01:30:10,950 --> 01:30:09,360
to treat trauma in that sense so again

2745
01:30:12,790 --> 01:30:10,960
he was not concerned with what the

2746
01:30:14,709 --> 01:30:12,800
explanation of what happened was he was

2747
01:30:17,430 --> 01:30:14,719
concerned with helping the person uh

2748
01:30:20,709 --> 01:30:17,440
deal with the trauma so

2749
01:30:24,310 --> 01:30:20,719
yeah um someone just put here uh

2750
01:30:26,629 --> 01:30:24,320
and i don't know i don't have any uh

2751
01:30:27,830 --> 01:30:26,639
uh you know linked to this or whatever

2752
01:30:29,510 --> 01:30:27,840
but he was put on a show where they

2753
01:30:31,510 --> 01:30:29,520
tested his truthfulness and he passed

2754
01:30:33,590 --> 01:30:31,520
which is interesting

2755
01:30:34,790 --> 01:30:33,600
um yeah i remember there was a he was on

2756
01:30:36,229 --> 01:30:34,800
a game show or something where they

2757
01:30:36,870 --> 01:30:36,239
tried to say he did not pass the

2758
01:30:38,870 --> 01:30:36,880
polygraph

2759
01:30:40,229 --> 01:30:38,880
based on this game show i i didn't put a

2760
01:30:42,310 --> 01:30:40,239
lot of uh

2761
01:30:44,470 --> 01:30:42,320
i would yeah it was i think it was maybe

2762
01:30:45,270 --> 01:30:44,480
10 years i do remember that i do okay

2763
01:30:48,790 --> 01:30:45,280
yeah yeah

2764
01:30:52,149 --> 01:30:48,800
ended that

2765
01:30:54,229 --> 01:30:52,159
um i just want to let

2766
01:30:55,510 --> 01:30:54,239
people know the line is open i feel that

2767
01:30:56,229 --> 01:30:55,520
you have a question for our guest

2768
01:31:01,669 --> 01:30:56,239
tonight

2769
01:31:03,510 --> 01:31:01,679
um that number is 855-472-5483 it's up

2770
01:31:06,470 --> 01:31:03,520
on the screen but if you're over on

2771
01:31:07,510 --> 01:31:06,480
kgra radio listening live again that

2772
01:31:10,950 --> 01:31:07,520
number is eight

2773
01:31:13,030 --> 01:31:10,960
five five four seven two five four eight

2774
01:31:17,590 --> 01:31:13,040
three and bill is standing by

2775
01:31:20,550 --> 01:31:17,600
thank you bill for that and uh so

2776
01:31:21,189 --> 01:31:20,560
um no i think we're recovering so many

2777
01:31:23,590 --> 01:31:21,199
uh

2778
01:31:24,629 --> 01:31:23,600
so many topics this is really a

2779
01:31:26,790 --> 01:31:24,639
fascinating

2780
01:31:28,950 --> 01:31:26,800
uh show for me i'm really enjoying it so

2781
01:31:31,750 --> 01:31:28,960
far um

2782
01:31:33,750 --> 01:31:31,760
and and it kind of it seems to me that

2783
01:31:35,510 --> 01:31:33,760
you have a very open mind about this

2784
01:31:37,110 --> 01:31:35,520
but you're also trying to look at it

2785
01:31:40,390 --> 01:31:37,120
logically and and

2786
01:31:44,149 --> 01:31:40,400
then sort of philosophically

2787
01:31:47,430 --> 01:31:44,159
of what um you know may be going on

2788
01:31:49,669 --> 01:31:47,440
because uh yes i i have um

2789
01:31:52,229 --> 01:31:49,679
you know always been interested and open

2790
01:31:54,790 --> 01:31:52,239
to the idea of what ufos may be

2791
01:31:57,030 --> 01:31:54,800
for you know since uh being a teenager

2792
01:31:59,430 --> 01:31:57,040
um i've also gotten a wrap for

2793
01:32:01,270 --> 01:31:59,440
being a skeptic sometimes i and i have

2794
01:32:03,270 --> 01:32:01,280
no problem being friends with skeptics

2795
01:32:04,310 --> 01:32:03,280
you know many many fine folks who are

2796
01:32:06,550 --> 01:32:04,320
skeptics but

2797
01:32:07,910 --> 01:32:06,560
um you know i try to try to remain

2798
01:32:09,270 --> 01:32:07,920
objective um

2799
01:32:11,350 --> 01:32:09,280
i i don't certainly don't have the

2800
01:32:12,629 --> 01:32:11,360
answers about what what's going on

2801
01:32:14,470 --> 01:32:12,639
i think there's some good questions that

2802
01:32:15,270 --> 01:32:14,480
we could and we could ask i think i

2803
01:32:17,590 --> 01:32:15,280
could you know

2804
01:32:19,510 --> 01:32:17,600
there there's some social social

2805
01:32:21,189 --> 01:32:19,520
psychological research that could help

2806
01:32:24,229 --> 01:32:21,199
us understand some of the

2807
01:32:26,229 --> 01:32:24,239
the impact maybe and you know the what's

2808
01:32:28,229 --> 01:32:26,239
the ins and outs of what's going on here

2809
01:32:30,229 --> 01:32:28,239
um but i don't certainly don't have any

2810
01:32:31,110 --> 01:32:30,239
of the answers and anytime anybody says

2811
01:32:34,790 --> 01:32:31,120
they do that's

2812
01:32:37,750 --> 01:32:34,800
probably an indicator that you know yeah

2813
01:32:38,629 --> 01:32:37,760
now you know going back uh we've brought

2814
01:32:41,030 --> 01:32:38,639
this back

2815
01:32:41,669 --> 01:32:41,040
uh up a few different times but going

2816
01:32:44,870 --> 01:32:41,679
back to

2817
01:32:46,790 --> 01:32:44,880
the abductions or experiences

2818
01:32:47,910 --> 01:32:46,800
i couldn't imagine myself you know i

2819
01:32:50,310 --> 01:32:47,920
just think about

2820
01:32:51,669 --> 01:32:50,320
i try to empathize with you know people

2821
01:32:53,270 --> 01:32:51,679
that are

2822
01:32:54,790 --> 01:32:53,280
going through whatever it is they're

2823
01:32:55,990 --> 01:32:54,800
going through i don't know how someone

2824
01:32:57,750 --> 01:32:56,000
could function

2825
01:33:00,229 --> 01:32:57,760
if something like that was happening in

2826
01:33:03,350 --> 01:33:00,239
their life it just seems like

2827
01:33:04,629 --> 01:33:03,360
such an overwhelming experience

2828
01:33:07,270 --> 01:33:04,639
i don't know how you could think about

2829
01:33:09,669 --> 01:33:07,280
anything else sure and i that's

2830
01:33:10,629 --> 01:33:09,679
you know i would think that would be i

2831
01:33:12,149 --> 01:33:10,639
would like to see

2832
01:33:14,709 --> 01:33:12,159
people who are mental health

2833
01:33:16,550 --> 01:33:14,719
professionals be more available for

2834
01:33:18,149 --> 01:33:16,560
for for this topic i mean if you're

2835
01:33:20,310 --> 01:33:18,159
going through this kind of experience a

2836
01:33:21,990 --> 01:33:20,320
person

2837
01:33:24,229 --> 01:33:22,000
clearly can have problems dealing with

2838
01:33:27,189 --> 01:33:24,239
what might be an existentially or a

2839
01:33:27,910 --> 01:33:27,199
you know a reality changing event uh

2840
01:33:29,830 --> 01:33:27,920
mental health

2841
01:33:32,229 --> 01:33:29,840
professionals not you know not assuming

2842
01:33:33,990 --> 01:33:32,239
that a person is is having some kind of

2843
01:33:35,430 --> 01:33:34,000
psychotic break or is a paranoid

2844
01:33:37,350 --> 01:33:35,440
schizophrenic but you know

2845
01:33:38,470 --> 01:33:37,360
something like that looking at this as

2846
01:33:39,990 --> 01:33:38,480
an experience which a person needs to

2847
01:33:41,110 --> 01:33:40,000
learn how to process figure out how they

2848
01:33:42,390 --> 01:33:41,120
want to process

2849
01:33:44,070 --> 01:33:42,400
and come up with their own narrative

2850
01:33:45,830 --> 01:33:44,080
about what it means i think is where

2851
01:33:47,990 --> 01:33:45,840
mental health professionals can be

2852
01:33:50,149 --> 01:33:48,000
of use or not not as much as imposing

2853
01:33:52,709 --> 01:33:50,159
their what what their view is on on

2854
01:33:54,149 --> 01:33:52,719
an individual's experience so that's

2855
01:33:56,470 --> 01:33:54,159
that's where again i like the

2856
01:33:58,310 --> 01:33:56,480
the approach of folks like ben simon

2857
01:33:59,910 --> 01:33:58,320
they're not promoting any specific

2858
01:34:01,270 --> 01:33:59,920
point of view their their their interest

2859
01:34:03,669 --> 01:34:01,280
is in helping the people that they're

2860
01:34:04,950 --> 01:34:03,679
dealing with

2861
01:34:06,870 --> 01:34:04,960
having said that though you know there

2862
01:34:07,590 --> 01:34:06,880
is a lot of data that we can gather i

2863
01:34:10,070 --> 01:34:07,600
think

2864
01:34:11,510 --> 01:34:10,080
um there was a you mentioned the work by

2865
01:34:13,590 --> 01:34:11,520
uh kathy marsden

2866
01:34:16,070 --> 01:34:13,600
uh i think jeff ritzman had done another

2867
01:34:18,070 --> 01:34:16,080
kind of survey he called project core

2868
01:34:20,070 --> 01:34:18,080
with some some kind of similar questions

2869
01:34:21,590 --> 01:34:20,080
that kind of related to personality

2870
01:34:24,149 --> 01:34:21,600
and i think that's one of the the

2871
01:34:27,110 --> 01:34:24,159
sources that did have the finding of uh

2872
01:34:28,310 --> 01:34:27,120
unusual experiences pre pre the sighting

2873
01:34:30,629 --> 01:34:28,320
or pre-encounter

2874
01:34:31,750 --> 01:34:30,639
uh one again that sticks out that sticks

2875
01:34:33,510 --> 01:34:31,760
out to me is one where

2876
01:34:34,950 --> 01:34:33,520
the house was being remodeled you know

2877
01:34:35,990 --> 01:34:34,960
and then then this happened something

2878
01:34:38,470 --> 01:34:36,000
like that where

2879
01:34:40,470 --> 01:34:38,480
there's a there's a dysregulation almost

2880
01:34:42,390 --> 01:34:40,480
a sense of imbalance and homeostasis

2881
01:34:45,430 --> 01:34:42,400
maybe and in a way and i don't know

2882
01:34:47,270 --> 01:34:45,440
if that relates to you know the later

2883
01:34:49,350 --> 01:34:47,280
paranormal or ufo experience but i think

2884
01:34:50,950 --> 01:34:49,360
it's very interesting maybe that

2885
01:34:52,950 --> 01:34:50,960
something could have you

2886
01:34:54,390 --> 01:34:52,960
mentally in a set where you're

2887
01:34:55,669 --> 01:34:54,400
predisposed to noticing

2888
01:34:58,470 --> 01:34:55,679
something in the environment or

2889
01:35:01,430 --> 01:34:58,480
experiencing something i i don't know

2890
01:35:03,030 --> 01:35:01,440
you know but again the assumption to me

2891
01:35:05,030 --> 01:35:03,040
at least is that there is something

2892
01:35:06,149 --> 01:35:05,040
externally causing the experience to

2893
01:35:08,229 --> 01:35:06,159
happen so

2894
01:35:10,310 --> 01:35:08,239
even if a psychological explanation

2895
01:35:11,350 --> 01:35:10,320
might help understand why a person is

2896
01:35:12,790 --> 01:35:11,360
prone to

2897
01:35:14,790 --> 01:35:12,800
seeing something or experiencing it or

2898
01:35:15,990 --> 01:35:14,800
reporting it doesn't necessarily solve

2899
01:35:16,550 --> 01:35:16,000
the whole problem of what it is that's

2900
01:35:18,470 --> 01:35:16,560
out there

2901
01:35:20,550 --> 01:35:18,480
in the atmosphere that people are

2902
01:35:24,790 --> 01:35:20,560
reporting in the first place

2903
01:35:28,310 --> 01:35:24,800
yeah um you know i i'm wondering too

2904
01:35:31,430 --> 01:35:28,320
if um you know we seem to get a lot

2905
01:35:34,390 --> 01:35:31,440
more ufo sightings when we have

2906
01:35:36,310 --> 01:35:34,400
more ways of seeing ufos i'm talking

2907
01:35:39,669 --> 01:35:36,320
about like night vision

2908
01:35:41,990 --> 01:35:39,679
you know things like that and and uh

2909
01:35:44,229 --> 01:35:42,000
like certain types of cameras now that

2910
01:35:46,870 --> 01:35:44,239
are going to a different spectrum

2911
01:35:47,510 --> 01:35:46,880
um which is another puzzle in this whole

2912
01:35:50,149 --> 01:35:47,520
thing

2913
01:35:51,189 --> 01:35:50,159
you know right what are what are we

2914
01:35:53,910 --> 01:35:51,199
seeing now

2915
01:35:54,950 --> 01:35:53,920
that may have been there all along you

2916
01:35:57,350 --> 01:35:54,960
know

2917
01:35:58,550 --> 01:35:57,360
a couple on on that reminds me uh chris

2918
01:36:00,470 --> 01:35:58,560
rotowski had

2919
01:36:02,390 --> 01:36:00,480
put something on facebook recently the

2920
01:36:04,629 --> 01:36:02,400
just verifying the numbers of reports of

2921
01:36:06,070 --> 01:36:04,639
ufos has increased during the pandemic i

2922
01:36:07,430 --> 01:36:06,080
i want to say about 20 percent

2923
01:36:09,189 --> 01:36:07,440
over what it would have been last year

2924
01:36:10,629 --> 01:36:09,199
at this time um

2925
01:36:12,550 --> 01:36:10,639
i don't know if the quality of those

2926
01:36:14,709 --> 01:36:12,560
reports is necessarily increased or more

2927
01:36:15,590 --> 01:36:14,719
of them are ufos versus ifo or that kind

2928
01:36:17,030 --> 01:36:15,600
of thing yet but

2929
01:36:19,189 --> 01:36:17,040
there do seem to be more people

2930
01:36:20,390 --> 01:36:19,199
reporting ufos during the pandemic which

2931
01:36:24,149 --> 01:36:20,400
is in itself

2932
01:36:27,189 --> 01:36:24,159
interesting um

2933
01:36:30,070 --> 01:36:27,199
i'm sorry where was i going with that

2934
01:36:31,350 --> 01:36:30,080
ufo reporting yeah you would ask the

2935
01:36:32,950 --> 01:36:31,360
original question you would ask i'm

2936
01:36:34,390 --> 01:36:32,960
sorry

2937
01:36:36,709 --> 01:36:34,400
i was just attacked on what my second

2938
01:36:38,390 --> 01:36:36,719
hand yeah uh

2939
01:36:40,790 --> 01:36:38,400
you know this is terrible because i i

2940
01:36:44,070 --> 01:36:40,800
was just texting the uh person

2941
01:36:46,070 --> 01:36:44,080
that spoke with dr uh uh simon

2942
01:36:48,310 --> 01:36:46,080
trying to get trying to get her all in

2943
01:36:49,109 --> 01:36:48,320
yeah so we were talking about increases

2944
01:36:51,350 --> 01:36:49,119
in sightings

2945
01:36:52,629 --> 01:36:51,360
recently but yeah that's what had heard

2946
01:36:53,750 --> 01:36:52,639
from chris rotowski that there'd have

2947
01:36:55,750 --> 01:36:53,760
been about a 20

2948
01:36:57,830 --> 01:36:55,760
increase from looking at the numbers

2949
01:36:59,830 --> 01:36:57,840
over uh this time last year

2950
01:37:01,669 --> 01:36:59,840
so what the if there's increased number

2951
01:37:03,350 --> 01:37:01,679
of objects in the sky or people are just

2952
01:37:05,590 --> 01:37:03,360
more likely right now to report or

2953
01:37:07,430 --> 01:37:05,600
more likely to notice it's a tough thing

2954
01:37:08,229 --> 01:37:07,440
to get a grasp on but it's definitely of

2955
01:37:11,350 --> 01:37:08,239
interest

2956
01:37:11,669 --> 01:37:11,360
well there's articles out now uh lots of

2957
01:37:14,229 --> 01:37:11,679
them

2958
01:37:16,629 --> 01:37:14,239
that kind of went viral and that is the

2959
01:37:18,629 --> 01:37:16,639
uh increase of ufo sightings is greatly

2960
01:37:22,629 --> 01:37:18,639
exaggerated that's the title

2961
01:37:25,910 --> 01:37:22,639
of it and then it goes on to say um that

2962
01:37:27,590 --> 01:37:25,920
uh you know it's it's uh because of the

2963
01:37:29,350 --> 01:37:27,600
covet thing and all that

2964
01:37:30,870 --> 01:37:29,360
um i personally i don't think it's gonna

2965
01:37:31,430 --> 01:37:30,880
make that much of a difference because

2966
01:37:32,470 --> 01:37:31,440
if

2967
01:37:33,990 --> 01:37:32,480
someone's going to work they're

2968
01:37:35,189 --> 01:37:34,000
commuting they're getting outside and

2969
01:37:36,310 --> 01:37:35,199
driving or whatever

2970
01:37:38,550 --> 01:37:36,320
i don't think it's going to make that

2971
01:37:41,590 --> 01:37:38,560
much of a a difference

2972
01:37:42,629 --> 01:37:41,600
in uh right it reminds me of have you

2973
01:37:45,430 --> 01:37:42,639
ever heard this one i

2974
01:37:46,310 --> 01:37:45,440
this is i've heard that people who smoke

2975
01:37:48,790 --> 01:37:46,320
cigarettes

2976
01:37:49,990 --> 01:37:48,800
very commonly because hey you're outside

2977
01:37:52,470 --> 01:37:50,000
you're looking up

2978
01:37:53,030 --> 01:37:52,480
walking the dog too right right exactly

2979
01:37:56,470 --> 01:37:53,040
hey

2980
01:37:58,070 --> 01:37:56,480
yeah but yeah um

2981
01:38:00,550 --> 01:37:58,080
let's see we have a caller i'm just

2982
01:38:03,510 --> 01:38:00,560
waiting for the name

2983
01:38:06,070 --> 01:38:03,520
okay we have uh here we go hang on just

2984
01:38:09,830 --> 01:38:06,080
one second i have to

2985
01:38:12,390 --> 01:38:09,840
add this and i'm going to do this

2986
01:38:12,870 --> 01:38:12,400
and here we go we have uh ray calling

2987
01:38:16,070 --> 01:38:12,880
from

2988
01:38:19,109 --> 01:38:16,080
vancouver welcome to the show ray hi ray

2989
01:38:22,390 --> 01:38:19,119
hi uh martin hi i'm

2990
01:38:33,510 --> 01:38:22,400
uh yeah i'm a longtime follower

2991
01:38:39,750 --> 01:38:36,709
yeah are you there

2992
01:38:41,590 --> 01:38:39,760
yeah i'm here martin uh yeah i have a

2993
01:38:44,149 --> 01:38:41,600
delay here

2994
01:38:45,990 --> 01:38:44,159
okay yeah and yeah you have a question

2995
01:38:47,510 --> 01:38:46,000
for our guest

2996
01:38:50,790 --> 01:38:47,520
uh yeah i was just going to tell you a

2997
01:38:58,950 --> 01:38:50,800
story too but uh this is uh

2998
01:39:00,709 --> 01:38:58,960
can you ask me uh timothy is there um

2999
01:39:01,510 --> 01:39:00,719
uh is there a significa does he know

3000
01:39:06,709 --> 01:39:01,520
anything

3001
01:39:13,830 --> 01:39:10,709
yeah go ahead yeah it's

3002
01:39:16,550 --> 01:39:13,840
does he know uh any significant uh

3003
01:39:16,950 --> 01:39:16,560
thing about the numbers uh one one one

3004
01:39:23,350 --> 01:39:16,960
one

3005
01:39:27,030 --> 01:39:23,360
eleven

3006
01:39:30,629 --> 01:39:28,870
unless there's a new numerological

3007
01:39:32,470 --> 01:39:30,639
explanation or something that i'm not

3008
01:39:34,470 --> 01:39:32,480
sure of so

3009
01:39:36,229 --> 01:39:34,480
i do know though since you bring that

3010
01:39:37,510 --> 01:39:36,239
topic up that that's of course a common

3011
01:39:40,310 --> 01:39:37,520
thing that people who

3012
01:39:42,149 --> 01:39:40,320
have latched on to was noticing 11-11

3013
01:39:45,189 --> 01:39:42,159
repeating number but i i couldn't tell

3014
01:39:46,870 --> 01:39:45,199
you much more than that on it sorry

3015
01:39:49,669 --> 01:39:46,880
all right all right thanks for the call

3016
01:39:50,470 --> 01:39:49,679
ray okay okay i'm just going to tell you

3017
01:39:55,189 --> 01:39:50,480
something else but

3018
01:39:57,750 --> 01:39:55,199
you know all right go right ahead

3019
01:39:59,350 --> 01:39:57,760
okay it's it's a story but uh it's gonna

3020
01:40:02,629 --> 01:39:59,360
end up to that eleven eleven

3021
01:40:06,950 --> 01:40:02,639
now what it is was um it was a nice

3022
01:40:10,790 --> 01:40:06,960
uh beautiful night um

3023
01:40:14,229 --> 01:40:10,800
uh july 25th 2020 uh 10 48

3024
01:40:18,950 --> 01:40:14,239
p.m pacific time

3025
01:40:21,830 --> 01:40:18,960
now um you know i went outside and

3026
01:40:22,229 --> 01:40:21,840
our town house here and you can picture

3027
01:40:25,350 --> 01:40:22,239
this

3028
01:40:27,590 --> 01:40:25,360
45 degrees in the night beautiful stars

3029
01:40:28,550 --> 01:40:27,600
out there there are these group of

3030
01:40:31,750 --> 01:40:28,560
lights flying

3031
01:40:34,950 --> 01:40:31,760
over 45 degrees maybe about

3032
01:40:36,470 --> 01:40:34,960
four or five lights now i was looking at

3033
01:40:38,790 --> 01:40:36,480
it and all of a sudden

3034
01:40:39,910 --> 01:40:38,800
you know it kind of faded away you can

3035
01:40:43,030 --> 01:40:39,920
see them it's bright

3036
01:40:45,030 --> 01:40:43,040
just uh bright beautiful lights just

3037
01:40:47,030 --> 01:40:45,040
bright white lights

3038
01:40:48,550 --> 01:40:47,040
and and they disappeared now uh the

3039
01:40:52,229 --> 01:40:48,560
thing about was like

3040
01:40:55,350 --> 01:40:52,239
oh wow that's that's weird you know

3041
01:40:59,910 --> 01:40:55,360
so anyway i let it go for a while and

3042
01:41:01,990 --> 01:40:59,920
but consecutively one flashed

3043
01:41:03,750 --> 01:41:02,000
that's 45 degrees and just just around

3044
01:41:06,390 --> 01:41:03,760
that side and then

3045
01:41:07,270 --> 01:41:06,400
another flash now the flashes are

3046
01:41:09,669 --> 01:41:07,280
getting closer

3047
01:41:11,990 --> 01:41:09,679
above my head and this is look we're

3048
01:41:14,470 --> 01:41:12,000
looking at about maybe 2 000 feet

3049
01:41:16,070 --> 01:41:14,480
you know because i we're about 2000 feet

3050
01:41:20,070 --> 01:41:16,080
above sea level here

3051
01:41:22,310 --> 01:41:20,080
so anyway um what happened was uh

3052
01:41:24,149 --> 01:41:22,320
the last flashlight was right above my

3053
01:41:27,430 --> 01:41:24,159
head now

3054
01:41:30,070 --> 01:41:27,440
uh check this out i was uh

3055
01:41:31,669 --> 01:41:30,080
at this time my telephone my iphone

3056
01:41:35,109 --> 01:41:31,679
actually sorry for saying that but

3057
01:41:38,870 --> 01:41:35,119
my iphone just you know it was out

3058
01:41:41,510 --> 01:41:38,880
i was watching a uh some show

3059
01:41:43,830 --> 01:41:41,520
and my telephone went out and then as

3060
01:41:45,990 --> 01:41:43,840
soon as that light flashed above my head

3061
01:41:49,030 --> 01:41:46,000
it was 12 o'clock

3062
01:41:49,990 --> 01:41:49,040
it left the light just went blink off

3063
01:41:52,709 --> 01:41:50,000
and then

3064
01:41:55,350 --> 01:41:52,719
i jumped my telephone just came up like

3065
01:42:00,070 --> 01:41:58,830
anyway this is just like the segment

3066
01:42:03,350 --> 01:42:00,080
from

3067
01:42:05,830 --> 01:42:03,360
close encounters with uh when that

3068
01:42:06,629 --> 01:42:05,840
when that saucer came above the car bro

3069
01:42:08,709 --> 01:42:06,639
i forgot

3070
01:42:09,830 --> 01:42:08,719
the actor's name he's a good actor my

3071
01:42:12,830 --> 01:42:09,840
name is

3072
01:42:14,070 --> 01:42:12,840
right yeah it's kind of weird it was

3073
01:42:17,189 --> 01:42:14,080
funny

3074
01:42:19,510 --> 01:42:17,199
yeah very interesting well well thank

3075
01:42:21,669 --> 01:42:19,520
you ray you you take care

3076
01:42:22,950 --> 01:42:21,679
yeah thank you very much martin thank

3077
01:42:25,590 --> 01:42:22,960
you yeah

3078
01:42:27,109 --> 01:42:25,600
all right we have uh we have the person

3079
01:42:28,950 --> 01:42:27,119
i was talking about

3080
01:42:30,229 --> 01:42:28,960
we have donna from massachusetts donna

3081
01:42:33,990 --> 01:42:30,239
welcome to the show

3082
01:42:36,310 --> 01:42:34,000
hi donna hey hello um

3083
01:42:37,109 --> 01:42:36,320
i'm enjoying the show and i have to say

3084
01:42:39,430 --> 01:42:37,119
i i

3085
01:42:41,189 --> 01:42:39,440
agree with a hundred percent of

3086
01:42:44,310 --> 01:42:41,199
everything that you've been

3087
01:42:48,629 --> 01:42:44,320
saying i come to the

3088
01:42:51,669 --> 01:42:48,639
subject having a lifelong interest

3089
01:42:55,030 --> 01:42:51,679
and i

3090
01:42:57,990 --> 01:42:55,040
had a brother who experienced or said he

3091
01:43:01,109 --> 01:42:58,000
experienced something very similar to

3092
01:43:02,070 --> 01:43:01,119
um well an objection experience

3093
01:43:04,070 --> 01:43:02,080
basically

3094
01:43:05,430 --> 01:43:04,080
but had some different features than the

3095
01:43:07,510 --> 01:43:05,440
betty and bonnie hill

3096
01:43:09,510 --> 01:43:07,520
the one case at that time that was well

3097
01:43:12,550 --> 01:43:09,520
known in the culture

3098
01:43:13,189 --> 01:43:12,560
so that was kind of interesting but my

3099
01:43:16,709 --> 01:43:13,199
brother

3100
01:43:17,830 --> 01:43:16,719
had issues and going back to there

3101
01:43:19,910 --> 01:43:17,840
aren't enough

3102
01:43:22,149 --> 01:43:19,920
mental health people that take it

3103
01:43:25,430 --> 01:43:22,159
seriously

3104
01:43:28,310 --> 01:43:25,440
and his his case um his

3105
01:43:29,189 --> 01:43:28,320
um was basically all about the

3106
01:43:31,270 --> 01:43:29,199
subduction

3107
01:43:32,310 --> 01:43:31,280
type thing you know where where do you

3108
01:43:35,350 --> 01:43:32,320
go

3109
01:43:37,590 --> 01:43:35,360
so it was the 70s and

3110
01:43:38,629 --> 01:43:37,600
i was living right outside of boston and

3111
01:43:42,070 --> 01:43:38,639
i remembered

3112
01:43:45,430 --> 01:43:42,080
dr simon's name and

3113
01:43:46,790 --> 01:43:45,440
called information and he was still in

3114
01:43:50,070 --> 01:43:46,800
practice

3115
01:43:51,430 --> 01:43:50,080
and i called looking for concerned about

3116
01:43:54,550 --> 01:43:51,440
my brother and

3117
01:43:57,030 --> 01:43:54,560
wanting to thinking that he will be i

3118
01:43:59,430 --> 01:43:57,040
mean go right to the top of you know a

3119
01:44:02,149 --> 01:43:59,440
resource if he'd be willing

3120
01:44:03,669 --> 01:44:02,159
thinking perhaps he has a whole caseload

3121
01:44:06,470 --> 01:44:03,679
of

3122
01:44:07,750 --> 01:44:06,480
patients that have had these experiences

3123
01:44:10,790 --> 01:44:07,760
and

3124
01:44:13,510 --> 01:44:10,800
looking for

3125
01:44:15,189 --> 01:44:13,520
and i was very surprised that he

3126
01:44:18,229 --> 01:44:15,199
returned the call

3127
01:44:22,310 --> 01:44:18,239
and it was out of concern

3128
01:44:25,270 --> 01:44:22,320
about my brother basically and

3129
01:44:26,870 --> 01:44:25,280
and he told me that i asked if he you

3130
01:44:29,910 --> 01:44:26,880
know was the

3131
01:44:33,910 --> 01:44:29,920
just to verify it was the the ben

3132
01:44:35,189 --> 01:44:33,920
simon um involved in the case and it was

3133
01:44:37,910 --> 01:44:35,199
and he said

3134
01:44:39,030 --> 01:44:37,920
you know it's been portrayed that i

3135
01:44:41,990 --> 01:44:39,040
believed

3136
01:44:44,870 --> 01:44:42,000
uh that they were taken on board a ship

3137
01:44:46,310 --> 01:44:44,880
and he said that that is not the case

3138
01:44:48,950 --> 01:44:46,320
you're talking betty and barney hill

3139
01:44:49,750 --> 01:44:48,960
just so people know yeah oh yes oh i'm

3140
01:44:51,030 --> 01:44:49,760
so sorry

3141
01:44:53,590 --> 01:44:51,040
i'm sorry well that's all right that's

3142
01:44:56,790 --> 01:44:53,600
all right yeah okay

3143
01:44:59,430 --> 01:44:56,800
so um so

3144
01:45:01,510 --> 01:44:59,440
um i i told him basically my brother's

3145
01:45:04,070 --> 01:45:01,520
story and he said well i

3146
01:45:05,030 --> 01:45:04,080
never believed that that's what happened

3147
01:45:07,590 --> 01:45:05,040
to them

3148
01:45:08,070 --> 01:45:07,600
um i don't think they were hoaxing as i

3149
01:45:11,430 --> 01:45:08,080
said

3150
01:45:14,390 --> 01:45:11,440
um but um he thought

3151
01:45:16,550 --> 01:45:14,400
it was more of a psychological um and

3152
01:45:18,149 --> 01:45:16,560
and it's funny now looking back

3153
01:45:19,910 --> 01:45:18,159
at it like that you could just talk

3154
01:45:20,629 --> 01:45:19,920
about it but i guess it was a public

3155
01:45:24,229 --> 01:45:20,639
case

3156
01:45:28,149 --> 01:45:24,239
so but he said that he felt that

3157
01:45:31,590 --> 01:45:28,159
um that a lot of it was um

3158
01:45:34,790 --> 01:45:31,600
um a um a sheer delusion i'm trying to

3159
01:45:37,109 --> 01:45:34,800
remember the french term for it

3160
01:45:38,310 --> 01:45:37,119
is what the the french term is fully ado

3161
01:45:41,189 --> 01:45:38,320
uh that's when

3162
01:45:41,990 --> 01:45:41,199
two people can start to agree upon a

3163
01:45:45,189 --> 01:45:42,000
delusion or

3164
01:45:47,109 --> 01:45:45,199
share a delusion but i think if i i mean

3165
01:45:49,510 --> 01:45:47,119
to cut you off there but i know i know

3166
01:45:51,510 --> 01:45:49,520
from dr simon my understanding was that

3167
01:45:52,629 --> 01:45:51,520
he he also felt that that some of this

3168
01:45:55,669 --> 01:45:52,639
was given the era

3169
01:45:57,030 --> 01:45:55,679
of a reaction on the part of both betty

3170
01:45:58,310 --> 01:45:57,040
and barney to some some kind of

3171
01:45:59,990 --> 01:45:58,320
underlying racism

3172
01:46:01,189 --> 01:46:00,000
maybe they had experience you know that

3173
01:46:02,070 --> 01:46:01,199
obviously they had in the past

3174
01:46:04,229 --> 01:46:02,080
experienced

3175
01:46:05,430 --> 01:46:04,239
uh racism that this was in some way a

3176
01:46:09,350 --> 01:46:05,440
manifestation

3177
01:46:11,430 --> 01:46:09,360
don't know that that's what i believe

3178
01:46:12,870 --> 01:46:11,440
he's exactly what he said in that

3179
01:46:15,910 --> 01:46:12,880
conversation

3180
01:46:17,510 --> 01:46:15,920
he said that he felt that that's a lot

3181
01:46:20,550 --> 01:46:17,520
of what it was given the

3182
01:46:21,270 --> 01:46:20,560
given the climate and the time um you

3183
01:46:24,470 --> 01:46:21,280
know

3184
01:46:28,629 --> 01:46:24,480
biracial um marriage at that time

3185
01:46:31,590 --> 01:46:28,639
in the late 50s and early 60s was

3186
01:46:32,470 --> 01:46:31,600
you know it was it was tough in rural

3187
01:46:35,590 --> 01:46:32,480
new hampshire

3188
01:46:36,149 --> 01:46:35,600
and um they were both very active um too

3189
01:46:38,709 --> 01:46:36,159
with the

3190
01:46:40,390 --> 01:46:38,719
civil rights but he felt that it was

3191
01:46:43,510 --> 01:46:40,400
connected to

3192
01:46:45,750 --> 01:46:43,520
those kinds of um

3193
01:46:47,510 --> 01:46:45,760
and i don't want to say alienation and

3194
01:46:50,550 --> 01:46:47,520
then alien but

3195
01:46:53,910 --> 01:46:50,560
there's that word and i've you know

3196
01:46:56,149 --> 01:46:53,920
thought about that um and what's

3197
01:46:58,790 --> 01:46:56,159
interesting is if you look at the

3198
01:47:00,470 --> 01:46:58,800
tape because because they're well they i

3199
01:47:01,910 --> 01:47:00,480
haven't looked for a long time but they

3200
01:47:05,189 --> 01:47:01,920
used to be available

3201
01:47:08,470 --> 01:47:05,199
you can see um through

3202
01:47:10,709 --> 01:47:08,480
the process because

3203
01:47:11,750 --> 01:47:10,719
that alien that you wind up thinking

3204
01:47:15,189 --> 01:47:11,760
about the

3205
01:47:16,390 --> 01:47:15,199
typical grey it starts off somewhere

3206
01:47:19,990 --> 01:47:16,400
with um

3207
01:47:23,109 --> 01:47:20,000
somebody that's irish and has red hair

3208
01:47:23,430 --> 01:47:23,119
and yeah uh and then i'm sorry barney

3209
01:47:24,709 --> 01:47:23,440
did

3210
01:47:27,350 --> 01:47:24,719
and and this is an interesting thing in

3211
01:47:30,310 --> 01:47:27,360
and of itself the the incident

3212
01:47:31,350 --> 01:47:30,320
with actually seeing the craft up close

3213
01:47:33,510 --> 01:47:31,360
and seeing

3214
01:47:35,350 --> 01:47:33,520
creatures inside it i think was all

3215
01:47:37,510 --> 01:47:35,360
pre-hypnosis i think it's just the

3216
01:47:40,070 --> 01:47:37,520
actual abduction itself that was

3217
01:47:42,390 --> 01:47:40,080
was not recalled consciously but at one

3218
01:47:43,910 --> 01:47:42,400
point barney did describe a red-headed

3219
01:47:46,310 --> 01:47:43,920
irishman and then saying something to

3220
01:47:49,030 --> 01:47:46,320
the effect of he looks like a nazi

3221
01:47:49,510 --> 01:47:49,040
um right right and then and when and

3222
01:47:53,669 --> 01:47:49,520
when

3223
01:47:56,470 --> 01:47:53,679
what and what what makes you think that

3224
01:47:57,430 --> 01:47:56,480
you know that that's what he is well

3225
01:47:59,910 --> 01:47:57,440
it's known and

3226
01:48:01,350 --> 01:47:59,920
he's mad because it's known that the

3227
01:48:05,109 --> 01:48:01,360
irish hate the

3228
01:48:07,350 --> 01:48:05,119
um you know our population or something

3229
01:48:09,590 --> 01:48:07,360
and then but the thing is if you put the

3230
01:48:11,189 --> 01:48:09,600
whole thing together yes there is that

3231
01:48:13,669 --> 01:48:11,199
part you know and it all

3232
01:48:14,870 --> 01:48:13,679
fits but there's these other things that

3233
01:48:17,990 --> 01:48:14,880
are worth looking at

3234
01:48:21,350 --> 01:48:18,000
too i i guess you know the evolution

3235
01:48:24,790 --> 01:48:21,360
and and why that comes about because

3236
01:48:27,830 --> 01:48:24,800
it's you know it the the

3237
01:48:30,310 --> 01:48:27,840
entity changes sort of over time

3238
01:48:31,910 --> 01:48:30,320
over those sessions right right there

3239
01:48:33,910 --> 01:48:31,920
was some description of the entity

3240
01:48:34,870 --> 01:48:33,920
having a large nose a jimmy durante

3241
01:48:37,270 --> 01:48:34,880
knows as betty

3242
01:48:39,030 --> 01:48:37,280
called it at first she used the term

3243
01:48:41,030 --> 01:48:39,040
jimmy durante knows uh and

3244
01:48:43,669 --> 01:48:41,040
later i think that they're kind of more

3245
01:48:50,229 --> 01:48:47,109
right he certainly was saying they had

3246
01:48:51,510 --> 01:48:50,239
some sort of um you know trauma he

3247
01:48:54,550 --> 01:48:51,520
thought he they had seen

3248
01:48:56,149 --> 01:48:54,560
something but the whole getting on board

3249
01:48:59,350 --> 01:48:56,159
and all of that

3250
01:49:01,669 --> 01:48:59,360
that he felt he was because he said

3251
01:49:03,669 --> 01:49:01,679
they're not lying i don't think they're

3252
01:49:06,390 --> 01:49:03,679
intentionally lying

3253
01:49:07,590 --> 01:49:06,400
um i don't think it's a hoax i think

3254
01:49:11,030 --> 01:49:07,600
they believe it

3255
01:49:14,470 --> 01:49:11,040
because you know enough time and talking

3256
01:49:15,350 --> 01:49:14,480
and you know whatever it sort of turned

3257
01:49:17,510 --> 01:49:15,360
i mean

3258
01:49:18,790 --> 01:49:17,520
somebody has even gotten to the point

3259
01:49:20,790 --> 01:49:18,800
where

3260
01:49:23,350 --> 01:49:20,800
they looked into the book it was i think

3261
01:49:27,750 --> 01:49:23,360
it was called the bolero shield

3262
01:49:30,950 --> 01:49:27,760
it was an outer limits episode

3263
01:49:33,669 --> 01:49:30,960
there is a very similar um

3264
01:49:35,350 --> 01:49:33,679
you know back in 19 whatever somebody i

3265
01:49:36,790 --> 01:49:35,360
don't know if it's true but

3266
01:49:38,550 --> 01:49:36,800
very close i think it was an outer

3267
01:49:40,229 --> 01:49:38,560
limits episode if i recall it was an

3268
01:49:43,109 --> 01:49:40,239
outer limits episode that betty had

3269
01:49:45,669 --> 01:49:43,119
possibly seen prior to the okay

3270
01:49:48,229 --> 01:49:45,679
yes yes and it was a very similar

3271
01:49:50,229 --> 01:49:48,239
looking alien and somebody timed it now

3272
01:49:50,870 --> 01:49:50,239
i you know i apologize that this has

3273
01:49:54,629 --> 01:49:50,880
been

3274
01:49:55,589 --> 01:49:54,639
incorrect but i i've heard it from some

3275
01:49:58,070 --> 01:49:55,599
source

3276
01:49:59,270 --> 01:49:58,080
that um you know i read it somewhere

3277
01:50:01,910 --> 01:49:59,280
that

3278
01:50:02,550 --> 01:50:01,920
there was an episode right around the

3279
01:50:06,790 --> 01:50:02,560
time

3280
01:50:10,310 --> 01:50:06,800
of um one of those sessions

3281
01:50:13,350 --> 01:50:10,320
and so it just it was you know maybe

3282
01:50:14,870 --> 01:50:13,360
in a magazine or a tv guide or whatever

3283
01:50:17,189 --> 01:50:14,880
because they because

3284
01:50:19,430 --> 01:50:17,199
they asked about that and they said oh

3285
01:50:20,310 --> 01:50:19,440
no we didn't we never watched that show

3286
01:50:23,189 --> 01:50:20,320
and

3287
01:50:24,950 --> 01:50:23,199
we didn't know but but you know again if

3288
01:50:27,350 --> 01:50:24,960
it hadn't changed but we

3289
01:50:29,669 --> 01:50:27,360
we focus on that one because you know

3290
01:50:33,430 --> 01:50:31,830
the outline and i think i i think it's a

3291
01:50:34,709 --> 01:50:33,440
i think it was an outer limits episode

3292
01:50:36,550 --> 01:50:34,719
that was on

3293
01:50:37,990 --> 01:50:36,560
pretty soon before the report i think

3294
01:50:39,430 --> 01:50:38,000
martin kottmeier was one of the folks

3295
01:50:41,350 --> 01:50:39,440
that nailed down the date and stuff on

3296
01:50:42,790 --> 01:50:41,360
one and all that had so yes i think i'm

3297
01:50:44,070 --> 01:50:42,800
kind of familiar with what you're

3298
01:50:45,669 --> 01:50:44,080
talking about and again it you know it

3299
01:50:46,310 --> 01:50:45,679
goes to this kind of interactive nature

3300
01:50:48,149 --> 01:50:46,320
of

3301
01:50:50,070 --> 01:50:48,159
what people are reporting there seem to

3302
01:50:50,870 --> 01:50:50,080
be social parts of it and there also

3303
01:50:52,870 --> 01:50:50,880
seem to be

3304
01:50:54,709 --> 01:50:52,880
parts that genuinely reflect and

3305
01:50:57,990 --> 01:50:54,719
experience with with an unknown

3306
01:51:01,109 --> 01:50:58,000
something so wow and um

3307
01:51:02,950 --> 01:51:01,119
part of um i just as martin said just

3308
01:51:06,310 --> 01:51:02,960
started you know i'm

3309
01:51:09,510 --> 01:51:06,320
interested in doing this work

3310
01:51:11,510 --> 01:51:09,520
is really it's not about and i explain

3311
01:51:13,750 --> 01:51:11,520
that

3312
01:51:14,870 --> 01:51:13,760
up front it's it's not all about getting

3313
01:51:18,310 --> 01:51:14,880
the details

3314
01:51:21,270 --> 01:51:18,320
to write a story it's about processing

3315
01:51:22,390 --> 01:51:21,280
you know what's happening and and

3316
01:51:25,990 --> 01:51:22,400
integrating that

3317
01:51:28,550 --> 01:51:26,000
and their experience and you know

3318
01:51:30,390 --> 01:51:28,560
that type of thing it's it's you know

3319
01:51:33,350 --> 01:51:30,400
not that it's necessarily

3320
01:51:35,109 --> 01:51:33,360
traumatic but i mean certainly that i

3321
01:51:36,149 --> 01:51:35,119
wouldn't want to do this kind of work

3322
01:51:37,589 --> 01:51:36,159
without

3323
01:51:39,350 --> 01:51:37,599
you know i could use even more

3324
01:51:41,990 --> 01:51:39,360
background but i have

3325
01:51:44,470 --> 01:51:42,000
enough i feel comfortable to do it if

3326
01:51:47,750 --> 01:51:44,480
somebody has some ab reaction during

3327
01:51:49,510 --> 01:51:47,760
you know hypnosis and you know you have

3328
01:51:52,709 --> 01:51:49,520
to

3329
01:51:54,310 --> 01:51:52,719
very bad severe anxiety attacks and you

3330
01:51:56,790 --> 01:51:54,320
have to be careful

3331
01:51:59,030 --> 01:51:56,800
and uh people have to you know be aware

3332
01:52:02,070 --> 01:51:59,040
that you know it can be very traumatic

3333
01:52:03,270 --> 01:52:02,080
and um but anyway

3334
01:52:05,109 --> 01:52:03,280
i think that's interesting though what

3335
01:52:06,709 --> 01:52:05,119
you said specifically about you're not

3336
01:52:07,990 --> 01:52:06,719
doing this to write a book about other

3337
01:52:09,430 --> 01:52:08,000
people's

3338
01:52:11,510 --> 01:52:09,440
encounters and i think that's something

3339
01:52:13,430 --> 01:52:11,520
that people who do are looking for help

3340
01:52:14,870 --> 01:52:13,440
in regards to trying to figure out how

3341
01:52:15,750 --> 01:52:14,880
to process an experience they've had

3342
01:52:17,990 --> 01:52:15,760
should think about

3343
01:52:19,430 --> 01:52:18,000
who you know the person that you're you

3344
01:52:21,109 --> 01:52:19,440
might be going to for help

3345
01:52:23,109 --> 01:52:21,119
what are their motivations in terms of

3346
01:52:23,430 --> 01:52:23,119
sharing the information and things like

3347
01:52:25,990 --> 01:52:23,440
that

3348
01:52:26,550 --> 01:52:26,000
so exactly okay well we're just about

3349
01:52:29,109 --> 01:52:26,560
we're just

3350
01:52:30,790 --> 01:52:29,119
running right out of time here but hey

3351
01:52:33,589 --> 01:52:30,800
thanks so much for the call that was

3352
01:52:34,310 --> 01:52:33,599
that was great really appreciated all

3353
01:52:37,830 --> 01:52:34,320
right

3354
01:52:39,910 --> 01:52:37,840
are

3355
01:52:41,189 --> 01:52:39,920
just right at the end of our time here

3356
01:52:44,470 --> 01:52:41,199
but um

3357
01:52:46,149 --> 01:52:44,480
can someone get are they people able to

3358
01:52:47,350 --> 01:52:46,159
reach you if someone would like to

3359
01:52:49,270 --> 01:52:47,360
discuss uh

3360
01:52:51,589 --> 01:52:49,280
you know this yeah yeah i'm i'm on

3361
01:52:53,350 --> 01:52:51,599
twitter you can catch me on twitter

3362
01:52:54,709 --> 01:52:53,360
um i don't have any i'm not running a

3363
01:52:56,470 --> 01:52:54,719
website right now i'm not really

3364
01:52:59,189 --> 01:52:56,480
promoting anything just kind of

3365
01:53:01,030 --> 01:52:59,199
stepping out and reevaluating the you

3366
01:53:02,550 --> 01:53:01,040
know ufo field and then i'll probably go

3367
01:53:04,229 --> 01:53:02,560
back and do some more work and maybe

3368
01:53:05,990 --> 01:53:04,239
write something come out but right now

3369
01:53:06,629 --> 01:53:06,000
yeah catch me on twitter i'll be happy

3370
01:53:08,709 --> 01:53:06,639
to uh

3371
01:53:11,030 --> 01:53:08,719
to discuss and collaborate and i

3372
01:53:12,950 --> 01:53:11,040
certainly appreciate the conversation

3373
01:53:14,390 --> 01:53:12,960
excellent thank you so much timothy it

3374
01:53:15,510 --> 01:53:14,400
was a real pleasure thank you martin i

3375
01:53:17,109 --> 01:53:15,520
really enjoyed it

3376
01:53:18,629 --> 01:53:17,119
all right great show as always well

3377
01:53:18,870 --> 01:53:18,639
today hopefully but the rest of the show

3378
01:53:20,870 --> 01:53:18,880
is

3379
01:53:23,510 --> 01:53:20,880
great that's right thanks all right take

3380
01:53:25,669 --> 01:53:23,520
care all right everyone so we're back

3381
01:53:26,550 --> 01:53:25,679
next week with jan aldrich and don't

3382
01:53:28,550 --> 01:53:26,560
miss that one

3383
01:53:29,589 --> 01:53:28,560
jan's a long time boots on the ground

3384
01:53:32,070 --> 01:53:29,599
researcher

3385
01:53:33,589 --> 01:53:32,080
and it should be a very interesting uh

3386
01:53:36,950 --> 01:53:33,599
show he's on phone only

3387
01:53:37,990 --> 01:53:36,960
so anyway um thanks so much and remember

3388
01:53:42,910 --> 01:53:38,000
to keep your eyes